Oldsmobile Toronado of Jay Leno 1966

[whiteballz]

i have to agree with bladey here guys.

you go off at him for being blind to your views - he hasnt dissed anything of yours, and you guys are trying to find little cracks in his argument, and destroying anything he has to say about it.

wake up. Open YOUR eyes to his thoughts and maybe he will be more inclined to do the same...

IMHO that car is FUGLY and i would take a dodge neon over that hunk.

raw power isnt everything.

[Bladerider]

Watch out as I'm sure Jay knows that too as he owns one of the few Rockets on the planet !
Along with his McLaren F1, he'd be sure to use the right weapon on the day

Now now !!!

Theres no need to be like that !!! lol

At least a couple of people know what Im talking about, cheers guys.

J.

[Coupe Deville]

Guys,

My original post was based on some simple facts, not that "I cant handle it if american cars handle". If they made a corvette that could be driven hard and give rewarding results on anything but a totally smooth surface (ie the majority of roads other than a freeway) then I would be down my local importer like a shot, as I think the corvette is one of the meanest looking cars around. But looks dont get you prizes when you are backwards in a hedge !!!

As for the twerp comment, I was merely replying with my choice of insult in rebuff of the one levelled at me. If you dont want to get called a twerp then dont be rude to me first and you will find I am totally polite - see my other posts for evidence.

Whether Matt is a patriot or not I couldnt say,and frankly dont care, it was a convenient way to wind a few people up and has rewarded me with some excellent results - many thanks . Comedy doesnt have to be straight forward ya know !!! lol

Whether you think I am wonderful, awful or indifferent I will still have the same views. I have no axe to grind or agenda to complete. I happily accept that the GTR isnt the most wonderful car on the planet, I dont think that the corvette is the worst either, I am simply a teller of truths and viewer of things from a neutral perspective. I like to take the pi$$ alot, but on the whole what I write regarding cars is honest and factual.

I would be happy to race Mr Leno round any proper racetrack with a totally standard M3 with 1/3 the power he has to prove my points about handling.

Like Matra says.......you cant escape physics !!

Lastly i would just point out that whilst the Corvette or Viper, or any american sports car is considered cheap and affordable over there, it is most definately not cheap and affordable over here. Fair enough its not as expensive as a Porsche 911turbo, but its still in the same league as some pretty good machinery, and by no means an obvious choice as the affordable supercar it seems to be on home soil.

J.

First off, read this: http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

On top of this, Automobile and Road & Track have also picked the Corvette over the 911, which is clearly one of, if not the best, "proper Eropean sportscar".

How about a trip around the Nurburgring? I'd say it's a fair test of a cars track ability. C6 does it in 7:56. 997 Carrera S (driven by Walter Rohrl) managed a 7:59. So now that we've settled that American cars can in fact handle I'll dismantle your price argument as well. (These prices are for Germany)
Corvette 53K Euros
911 64.7K Euro
Carrera S 73.3K

Next time try to have at least a vauge idea of what you're spouting off about.

[Matra et Alpine]

On top of this, Automobile and Road & Track have also picked the Corvette over the 911, which is clearly one of, if not the best, "proper Eropean sportscar".

Nopbles piss all over 911s
Elise's even show them up on twisty tracks.
We had an RS3 on one of our trackdays, the Exige and Elise were making it VERY embarrassing for hi,
So it DOES depend on the track.
Fastest speed seen on the track was a Saleen in the GT championship a couple of yesr back. Swept passed cars on the uphill straight. By the time they came back aroudn it was at the back of the pack again. Knockhill is a particulry nasty track for handling !!

How about a trip around the Nurburgring? I'd say it's a fair test of a cars track ability. C6 does it in 7:56. 997 Carrera S (driven by Walter Rohrl) managed a 7:59. So now that we've settled that American cars can in fact handle

It pays to check the actual car and what was done.
For example the Radicla SR3 which held the record for production didn't have ANY setup time. They came to the track with waht they thougt was right and did the laps. Donkervoort simillary used SPA setup IIRC, but did spend a LOT more laps. I do know that SOME of the cars on the 'ring come with complete factory teams to fine tune and they do laps then setup then laps then setup and culminate in the fastest laps.
I don't know if the 2 you cite werew a 5-lapper timing chase or a week long effort. I'll ask one of the 'ring guys - actually new member "dragon' might be able to help us there
Nordschleife has some long straights where 10-15 seconds can be made up if a car has a 15 mph higher top speed. It'a actually a fairly long track remember. BUT it does require decent handling so any sub 8 time is good going But it doesn't de-facto mean excellent handling. There are cars that are gicing away 30mph in top speed and still post faster times - now THAT is good handling
Also, it's worth checkign out who's driving. There are some acknowledged 'experts' on the 'ring. One of them is the taxi driver, she has been driving the ring for YEARS

I'll dismantle your price argument as well. (These prices are for Germany)
Corvette 53K Euros
911 64.7K Euro
Carrera S 73.3K

Which 'vette is that ?
be careful of "entry level" pricing versus fully loaded with performance parts.
Actually for us in the UK the German marques have been the worst with CD player being an 'extra'
Which 911 ? Seems a bit cheap

EDIT: I'd read that article in a previous discussion with SLicks. So the 911 actually beat it on handling but the "fudge factors" they put in for the price put the 'vette on top. Jsut remember that IS a fudge factor. Slight less "fudge" and the 911 woudl have won, more "fudge" and the 'vette woudl ahve won more convincingly. "Fudge" is VERY subjective and could easily be argued.
It's similar to the complaints when the 'vette loses because it can't handle the British roads and is "difficult to place". Thems the conclusing within the constraints of the test and SHOULD be taken as much as the "fudge" in that article.
You won't get much better power to the road for the money for sure, for roads where that's best it's a good choice, where it's not, it's not

[Coupe Deville]

The whole point of my post was to illustrate that they have indeed "made a corvette that could be driven hard and give rewarding results on anything but a totally smooth surface." I'm not trying to say it is the best handling car ever as this is clearly not the case. I know for a fact that it's not even the best handling American car out there. What I am saying is that his ignorant assumption that "all american cars handle poorly" is just that. And about the drivers for those n-ring times, The Corvette was driven by Dave Hill. I should hope that Rohrl knows the course a little better than him.

[Matra et Alpine]

Maybe we need to slow things down and clarify.

When the handling is critised tht does not make it then poor.
Critisism highlights the deficiencies only.

"Fanboys" dont' handle criticism well as they think their car is 'god' at everything.
NO CAR IS

Knowledgable owners know the limits of their cars. In my posts I've often pointed out the issues in all of mine and certainly the MGB is the prime example of "flogging a dead horse" in post-historic rallying - but it's then more of a challeng

Knowledgable owners can take the criticism as they know it themselves.

And in any criticism their is CONTEXT to be remembered. For example some of the most enjoyable roads to drive in Scotladn couldn't take a car the length of a Viper or the long wheelbase without having to do 3 point turns for some corners and grounding out the middle on rises. They're GREAT fun in Minis ie. I arranged a Scottish tour with 30 Alpines from all over Europe. The A110s LOVED some of the roads and the A610 owners hated them - because they were too twisty for the bigger car. The A610 owners ( me included ) didn't have a problem putting our hands up and saying our cars weren't able to cope.

Some folks on UCP are too young to have that maturity and hpefully can taek the learnign experiences offered.

on Dave Hill v. Rorhl I couldn't call. Rorhl is an aging ex-really driver who's been reasonable in saloons. Don't know how often either of them race the 'ring and hoping maybe 'dragon' can help us quantify that and maybe we can also find out the setups and testing. My mates away to the sun for crimbo

TO return to Jay's Tornado. Does anyone know the weight as asked earlier ?
As it's described it SOUNDS like it may have seperate chassis and THEN all that 70s steel on top - now that will NEVER make for decent handling

[Bladerider]

Next time try to have at least a vauge idea of what you're spouting off about.

So you have driven a C5, a 911 GT3 or Turbo, a new M3 or CSL down typical backroads here in the UK then. ?????

My apologies if you have. But I have, and frankly i would take the CSL first closely followed by the GT3 then the turbo then the regular M3 and i wouldnt bother with the vette as it is simply too much to ask it to try to keep up. I dare say if I was a more skilled racing driver then I could probably attain the parity you suggest the C5 or C6 is capable of. But as I did point out, I was talking about the real world where myself or Mr Leno would be driving, not whether a racing driver could do better.

Besides, the original argument was concerning 2tonnes+ of detroit pig iron wrapped in a god awful jacket !!!

J.

[CdocZ]

bladerider, one thing you need to consider. the c5 is hardly bigger at all then a carrera 911 body. your right not to take it, but not about size. there was a huge argument on pages 15 or so, on the supercar engine poll.....or somewhere around those page #'s.

[Coupe Deville]

Maybe we need to slow things down and clarify.

When the handling is critised tht does not make it then poor.
Critisism highlights the deficiencies only.

"Fanboys" dont' handle criticism well as they think their car is 'god' at everything.
NO CAR IS

Knowledgable owners know the limits of their cars. In my posts I've often pointed out the issues in all of mine and certainly the MGB is the prime example of "flogging a dead horse" in post-historic rallying - but it's then more of a challeng

Knowledgable owners can take the criticism as they know it themselves.

And in any criticism their is CONTEXT to be remembered. For example some of the most enjoyable roads to drive in Scotladn couldn't take a car the length of a Viper or the long wheelbase without having to do 3 point turns for some corners and grounding out the middle on rises. They're GREAT fun in Minis ie. I arranged a Scottish tour with 30 Alpines from all over Europe. The A110s LOVED some of the roads and the A610 owners hated them - because they were too twisty for the bigger car. The A610 owners ( me included ) didn't have a problem putting our hands up and saying our cars weren't able to cope.

Some folks on UCP are too young to have that maturity and hpefully can taek the learnign experiences offered.

on Dave Hill v. Rorhl I couldn't call. Rorhl is an aging ex-really driver who's been reasonable in saloons. Don't know how often either of them race the 'ring and hoping maybe 'dragon' can help us quantify that and maybe we can also find out the setups and testing. My mates away to the sun for crimbo

TO return to Jay's Tornado. Does anyone know the weight as asked earlier ?
As it's described it SOUNDS like it may have seperate chassis and THEN all that 70s steel on top - now that will NEVER make for decent handling

Okay, I'm not sure where you are trying to go with this now. Bladerider stated, and I quote: "all American cars handle poorly." This is not critisism, it's an untrue statement based on a stereotype. It's like if I were to say that no British manufacturer can make a proper engine. The fact that I said it doesn't make it true. There is nothing to argue here so I don't understand where your train of thought is headed. I myself have enough knowledge of the ring to know that Rohrl is far more experienced on it.

[Matra et Alpine]

Okay, I'm not sure where you are trying to go with this now. Bladerider stated, and I quote: "all American cars handle poorly." This is not critisism, it's an untrue statement based on a stereotype.

it was to ensure that when folks saw criticism being made about a cars performance or handling that it didn't get restated or quoted as being "poor handling". Not the best doesn't mean "poor". All terms like that are relative anyway with many variables so one mans "poor" is another mans "great".

It's like if I were to say that no British manufacturer can make a proper engine. The fact that I said it doesn't make it true. There is nothing to argue here so I don't understand where your train of thought is headed.

No argument being put up, an explanation and clarification was what was intended.
Well 'cept to "fanboys" but that should be made illegal like "bear baiting"

I myself have enough knowledge of the ring to know that Rohrl is far more experienced on it.

Who IS Dave Hill ? Excellent a 'ring knowledgable person. So can you let us know the Qs earlier. I'm intrested to find out how much time each attempt took in setup, practise and numebr of laps done. The only one I know for fact is Radical and I've read the Donkervoort too. Both seemed they coudl have chosen a better business decision to spend more time doing setup and practse to get faster laps ( or maybe they beat the record so early in the test they just decided to spend the rest of the money on beer in the pub !! ) I woudl love to know.

[Matt]

TO return to Jay's Tornado. Does anyone know the weight as asked earlier ?
As it's described it SOUNDS like it may have seperate chassis and THEN all that 70s steel on top - now that will NEVER make for decent handling

As I said above, Jay said on the show that it is 1300lbs lighter than a Bentley Continental GT which would, according to him, put it at about 4200lbs.

So, that's around 500hp/ton?

[Matra et Alpine]

As I said above, Jay said on the show that it is 1300lbs lighter than a Bentley Continental GT which would, according to him, put it at about 4200lbs.

So, that's around 500hp/ton?

Thanks Matt, missed that first time around

yeah, 4200 lbs so it aint gonna be pretty on the handling front as a performance car but I'm hoping it's comfy !! Power/weight only counts for acceleration, give no insight to handling or braking - but I'm sure you already new that.

Actually lighter than I though it woudl have been with the description of it, so I guess it's not a fully sperate chassis and body and taht it's built a little bit smarter.

I still lust after all the cars in his garage and he's a lucky man being able to chose to take a car out on a day from a selection that offers him probably the widest range of performance/handling/loks/comfort and just raw appeal
Well besides the Sultan !!!!

[CdocZ]

wow......500 bph per ton.........holy crap, thats easily one of the best power to weight ratios ive ever seen (then again, the noble m400 has 400 bhp per ton, and its stock)

[Matra et Alpine]

Ariel Atom stock 496 bhp/ton
Deronda was going to have 450 bhp/ton - STOCK
Radical SR3 Turbo is 640bhp/ton - STOCK and street legal
Donkervoort, Caterham, Westfield all produce variants in the 450-500 bhp/ton all strett legal and orderable

[CdocZ]

i know, but still.......you gotta give it the credit, that has to be one of the highest power to weight ratios youve ever seen