Are corvettes over or under rated as sports cars

[Slicks]

I thought your potty woudl be full by now

Just as full as yours

I don't think I need to go over the English inference in 'better' as you've used in the past. Do I ?
We need to just disagree on this one coz I'm fed up repeating.
You know you're probably winning because your stubborness is stronger than my desire for truth honesty and the 'mericun way

Seriously man, better does not = best.

That was the point I was making. You corrected me by identifying more mags you'd read on the Elise - and bad me for making the assumption. And pointed out it was only the one variant in the USofA - which is a shame for you guys

Thanks for admitting it. There seems to be something different about you in this post... You seem less angry...?

I've explained my experiences and the comparison I can make with an article and the real car and how I can defend the inference I THEN make from an article to the real car(s).
Once you've drive the cars you read about you'll build that skill too.

No argument there.

"best numbers I've seen for a Z06" - some published numbers have been tuned versions.
It wasn't clear whether you were talking stock or not.
I was jsut clarifying that "best mnumbers" for Elise' comes from some with uprated shocks and springs on the rear.

No, stock. They say if they were modified or not.

That's OK, it didnt' make sense what I wrote - my bad typo sorry.
Clearly I meant X better than Y and A better than X means that A is better than Y It was a long day and night

Ok, thats alot better.

Naughty to be "correcting" figures.
I thought we all agreed that you can't compare 2 difference tests on different days on different trakcs

Yes, true. But im just comparing numbers, didnt you say that the porshce out handled the Elise, so in turn the porsche out handled the vette? The porsche and vette were tested on the same track same day.

Also, I've told you that skid pan is not a realistic test of handling. It's a test of STATIC compression on body roll. NOT representative of the real handling of ANY car and really only useful for those impressed by NUMBERS.
But on the track times, I can only return to reminding that tracsk can favour cars and without taking a range of tracks or a track with a range of corners and straights can it become 'fair'. Also, WHERE gear changes are needed can make SECONDS of difference on a track. So again, the car can either be lucky or be 'tuned' for the test.

Yes, i understand what your saying and share the same view. But like i said, i have yet to see a corvette (evenly compared) be beat by a 911 on a track(that does include the n-ring).

You told me not to infer best because you said somethign was better than an acknowledged best.
You told me not to - or did you forget ?????

Yes i told you not to infer 'best' when i say car A is better than B, so car A is the best. Because what about car C? D? E? etc. Thats why there is no 'best' car.

Yeah, but you often mix fact and opinion and so do journalists.
Also very few FACTS tell us about the handling or performance of a car in real life. THAT's why serious mags and shows now use standard tracks and why Nordshleife has become the de-facto standard if you want to prove ULTIMATE
I was just trying to remind you of that.

True, i do wish there were a "test track" that all cars were tested on. At least something like 1 test track per magazine.

Missed the point compeltely - ah well.
Let me add this to get the point. ... a German mag woudl be lynched if it didnt' include Porsche. An Italian one if no Ferrari. A British one if no TVR. Get the point now ?? Thanks.

No, i got the point. I know what you meant, but was correcting you for it. The Viper and Vette are not loved by americans because we make them, there loved because of what they offer for the dollar. Thats why the mags woulds get lynched.

Actually not a great citation as Dontev tried to move the 'Vette to mid engine along with a new rear-end. So it isn't REALLY fair for me to claim it was the rear end handling ONLY - which is kinda implied in what I'd written.
But it is a worthy reminder that the originator of the Corvette saw it's future as a mid-engine sportscar

Ah, its seems i underestimated you, i didnt expect you to even know that Duntov was the "father" of the Corvette. Yes, he did truly want the vette to be mid-engined.

SHeez man I had smileys and it IS reasonable to assume that a net-reader will know some of the common things. After all, you DID try pulling me up on ROTFL v ROFL back in http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...3&postcount=47 so I think it reasonabel to have made the assumption !!!!!!

No prob. Yeah i seriously never heard that before? Is that some kind of european thing or what?
Alright alot of things have been cleared up, and something about your post seems different about you, like i said before. You seem alot less angry than in most of your posts. I like it better that way

[CSL]

underrated, especailly by n00bish europeans who think their 911 is God

[smartman1]

exactly, the C5 Z06 can stay with/sometimes beat a 360 Modena on any track.

[smartman1]

Nice Cars Is The Best Thing Top Have.
Nice Cars 4 Charming.

[Matra et Alpine]

Just as full as yours

I'd expected better

Seriously man, better does not = best.

Well later on you realised where I was using logic to show how it IS mathematecally and liguistically accepted to conlude better can be best.
If you dont' agree with that still then leave it coz I'm not your school teacher and yo're post is coming over more positive too

Thanks for admitting it. There seems to be something different about you in this post... You seem less angry...?

Coudl it be that I've agreed with a point you made and that's making things feel better for you ?

Yes, true. But im just comparing numbers, didnt you say that the porshce out handled the Elise, so in turn the porsche out handled the vette? The porsche and vette were tested on the same track same day.

Well if one thing I am consistent.
The Elise can outhandle the Porsche on some tracks and the other way on others. Personal expereince at Knockhilll on wet days the Elise stopms all over the GT3 that comes to our trackdays, on dry days the opposite. It's ALL down to ONE CORNER before a drag uphill. The Elise can go through the corner in the wet faster than the 911 and manages to make better speed up the hill. OIn driy it's almost embarrassing the other way
So I'd argue Elise just as I've don 'vette.
The world ISN'T simple and quantifiable - thank God !!!!

Yes, i understand what your saying and share the same view. But like i said, i have yet to see a corvette (evenly compared) be beat by a 911 on a track(that does include the n-ring).

I've not seen Z06 time other than 'unofficial' in a Z-06 forum when all this started. They were say 7.56 which woudl put it up with the 911s but I've never seen another reference. Maybe you have it ? Here is the best list of laptimes recognised by many "Nordshleifers" in the UK... http://nordschleife.no/
EDIT: Got sent link by mate - http://media.gm.com/news/releases/03..._corvette.html GM announcment on it getting sub 8 during 'testing'. So we still cant' be sure whether it's stock or not, but that's doing well. Once figures are out on top speed etc it's possible to then see where strengths and weknesses lie on the 'ring. Also they dont' say who was driving which on the 'ring makes a HUGE diffference

Yes i told you not to infer 'best' when i say car A is better than B, so car A is the best. Because what about car C? D? E? etc. Thats why there is no 'best' car.

You're missing that I pointed out one of the cars you were listing as it 'better' than was an acknowledged 'best' by all who drove it and wrote articles on it.
Maybe another insight into "best handling" is needed. A couple of years back 5th gear got Richard Burns, Tiff Needell and (damn dont' remember who the racing driver was). Anyway they concluded the Peugeot 106 was a best handling car. It didnt' turn in really fast times. These were professional drivers testging HADNLING and isolating it from performance. Autocar did one last year too and from a large list including exotics the MX-5 ( Miata ) won best-handling not one I'd have given it to ! So even one person better and best isnt' the same for reasons of experience than others !!

True, i do wish there were a "test track" that all cars were tested on. At least something like 1 test track per magazine.

Pretty much what is adopted in the UK>
Top Gear use ther own flat track.
5th Gear use Anglesey which is a really twisty track with gradients and some nasty off-camber corners.
Autocar (IIRC) uses Rockingham
problme is all 3 tracks are SO different that there isn't a conclusive 'winner' as the 'best' are all so close.

No, i got the point. I know what you meant, but was correcting you for it. The Viper and Vette are not loved by americans because we make them, there loved because of what they offer for the dollar. Thats why the mags woulds get lynched.

For the same reasons German cars and (some) Italian cars.
We'd gone over this already. The US gets to see the EXPENSIVE cars, so can't compare bang for buck in any "fair" way. Euqally in the UK the importers always do a 1:1 exchange rate and that hikes the price 50% so it's NOT a great deal.
When talking in international forum it's necessary to rmember that when trying to compare - hence why the proposal to agree to compare "cheapest anywhere" prices when trying to do bang-for-buck evaluations.

Ah, its seems i underestimated you, i didnt expect you to even know that Duntov was the "father" of the Corvette. Yes, he did truly want the vette to be mid-engined.

Well it comes with being an old-fart who has been in competition and car construction and design and build for 30+ years
It doesn't mean I know everything, but I've been involved in competition since I was 12, I rebuild my first competition 'box then and by 14 was gas-flowing MG1300 heads for use in competition Minis. Competed in my first rally when I was 15 and have continued that and passing on the same tutoring that I enjoyed to friends and local kids clubs. They probably are responsible for me finding out about the "big name" cars as they ask ALL the questions. Often I refer to my extensive library of books acquired over the years.
The reason I was able to nit-pick on suspension layout and setup is it's something my analytical engineering background lets me model and do the math before committing to adjusting/remodelling. Oh and a few crahses and broken bits along the way makes doing it wrong a painful experience :0

No prob. Yeah i seriously never heard that before? Is that some kind of european thing or what?

no, I don't know the source of it, it's just one of those things in the ;net history.

Alright alot of things have been cleared up, and something about your post seems different about you, like i said before. You seem alot less angry than in most of your posts. I like it better that way

Same tru for you.
So lets get back to facts and opinions and TRY to respect them.
Where's gow's thread ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Matra et Alpine]

underrated, especailly by n00bish europeans who think their 911 is God

Some of us don't think the 911 is god anyway
hell my A610 beat the 911 when it was launched !!!!

Radical SR3 is GOD

[gow589]

I would doubt that very much, I stopped reading this thread a long time ago when it turned into a two person war, where obviously nobody was prepared to move an inch and the "last word" appears to be the ultimate holy grail. My proposal would be to agree that as long as the internet does not offer the option to sit together and talk things over, enjoying a couple of beers, there are some unsurmountable differences between two individuals so stop this thread right here. It is not going to bring us any further when it continues. I am not taking any side in the debate, but I would support GOW's suggestion to move on and start talking about cars again.

Let's do that! Henk,

I tell you what is underated is a USED corvette! I just put in Corvette under $10k on ebay and came up with over 200 examples. There were so many corvettes made that the value of them drops soon after purchased (like any other high volume car). A $50,000 Vette new is really not a bad price for the package but I never buy my cars new. I bought a Ford F350 for about $10k less that what it cost new with only 24K miles on it. I'll put another 150K miles on it before I am done.

As I mentioned before, in a recent rally, and old stock vette with race tires beat a much higher HP NEwer Z06 Vette without race tires. 10K puts a vette in nearly anyones price range. My brother keeps wanting me to take my Pantera to the track. I haven't for several reasons but I told him if I were to go to the track I'd get a ragged out old vette (For a lot less than $10K) and run it. He sugest the Pantera would do a lot better on the track but I would rather thrash out a ragged out old vette than thrash something I would have a hard time replaicing.

[cossie]

on this point of used vettes,what year did the quad cam 350's come out in the vette,was it only in the ZR1 or is it still in production and are they easy to pick up(the engine) at wreckers in the US?The reason for this question is I am looking to put one of these engines in an Australian car.

[Slicks]

I'd expected better

Sry, just didnt have it that night. :P

Well later on you realised where I was using logic to show how it IS mathematecally and liguistically accepted to conlude better can be best.
If you dont' agree with that still then leave it coz I'm not your school teacher and yo're post is coming over more positive too

Ok, i understand what your saying now, but i wasnt aware that there was an acknowledge best we were talking about.

Coudl it be that I've agreed with a point you made and that's making things feel better for you ?

No it wasnt that... Its through out the whole post, its just like your not talking with an angry tone anymore.

Well if one thing I am consistent.
The Elise can outhandle the Porsche on some tracks and the other way on others. Personal expereince at Knockhilll on wet days the Elise stopms all over the GT3 that comes to our trackdays, on dry days the opposite. It's ALL down to ONE CORNER before a drag uphill. The Elise can go through the corner in the wet faster than the 911 and manages to make better speed up the hill. OIn driy it's almost embarrassing the other way
So I'd argue Elise just as I've don 'vette.
The world ISN'T simple and quantifiable - thank God !!!!

Wow, ive never seen an evenly compared Elise (that would probably mean the elise with the sports package) outhandled by a 911.

I've not seen Z06 time other than 'unofficial' in a Z-06 forum when all this started. They were say 7.56 which woudl put it up with the 911s but I've never seen another reference. Maybe you have it ? Here is the best list of laptimes recognised by many "Nordshleifers" in the UK... http://nordschleife.no/
EDIT: Got sent link by mate - http://media.gm.com/news/releases/03..._corvette.html GM announcment on it getting sub 8 during 'testing'. So we still cant' be sure whether it's stock or not, but that's doing well. Once figures are out on top speed etc it's possible to then see where strengths and weknesses lie on the 'ring. Also they dont' say who was driving which on the 'ring makes a HUGE diffference

Yes that was the 'rumor' that the Z06 ran 7:56. Theres no doubt that its stock, wouldnt they mention something if it wasnt? Also Dave Hill drove the C6 Z51 and got 7:56 with that.

You're missing that I pointed out one of the cars you were listing as it 'better' than was an acknowledged 'best' by all who drove it and wrote articles on it.

Are you saying that the 911 was acknowledged 'best'?

Maybe another insight into "best handling" is needed. A couple of years back 5th gear got Richard Burns, Tiff Needell and (damn dont' remember who the racing driver was). Anyway they concluded the Peugeot 106 was a best handling car. It didnt' turn in really fast times. These were professional drivers testging HADNLING and isolating it from performance. Autocar did one last year too and from a large list including exotics the MX-5 ( Miata ) won best-handling not one I'd have given it to ! So even one person better and best isnt' the same for reasons of experience than others !!

Yes, ive seen things like this. R&T did something like this.
article
Yes, the 911 turbo out handled the Z06 in this article, but remember the C6 Z51 and the 05 911 Carrera are different from these other, older models.

Pretty much what is adopted in the UK>
Top Gear use ther own flat track.
5th Gear use Anglesey which is a really twisty track with gradients and some nasty off-camber corners.
Autocar (IIRC) uses Rockingham
problme is all 3 tracks are SO different that there isn't a conclusive 'winner' as the 'best' are all so close.

Yeah, they just need to do something like that in the US.

Same tru for you.
So lets get back to facts and opinions and TRY to respect them.
Where's gow's thread ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Let's.

[Slicks]

on this point of used vettes,what year did the quad cam 350's come out in the vette,was it only in the ZR1 or is it still in production and are they easy to pick up(the engine) at wreckers in the US?The reason for this question is I am looking to put one of these engines in an Australian car.

Im pretty sure it was from 1989 to 1995 they made the LT5. That engine was only found in the ZR1.If your considering picking up one youd be MUCH better off with something like an LS6. The LS6 is smaller, lighter(much lighter), and makes just as much, if not more power. Its also much easier to find, and get parts for.

[CdocZ]

i would have to say corvettes are both underrated and overrated at the same time. one of my friends, whenever i mention any american car, hes like "oh, the corvettes definitly better". ok, yes the corvette is good, but thats a perfect example of someone overraring the vette. ok, they are a good example of american cars, it has a nice amount of everything (power, reliability, handling, etc), but some people REALLY exagerate it. im not saying that all vette lovers do, but more then 90% of the vette lovers i know are like that. the viper is also underrated, because it compares with cars like, as mentioned before, the 360 modena. but when you think of competitors in the 1000-200k area, even tho the vette definitly does compete there, how many people really think of the vette? i doubt many do.

[aNOBLEman]

I would doubt that very much, I stopped reading this thread a long time ago when it turned into a two person war, where obviously nobody was prepared to move an inch and the "last word" appears to be the ultimate holy grail. My proposal would be to agree that as long as the internet does not offer the option to sit together and talk things over, enjoying a couple of beers, there are some unsurmountable differences between two individuals so stop this thread right here. It is not going to bring us any further when it continues. I am not taking any side in the debate, but I would support GOW's suggestion to move on and start talking about cars again.

I meant for them, if they could get a good "discussion" going there would probably be quite a few posts by each of them.

[henk4]

I meant for them, if they could get a good "discussion" going there would probably be quite a few posts by each of them.

without us having to bother you mean

[henk4]

Let's do that! Henk,

I tell you what is underated is a USED corvette! I just put in Corvette under $10k on ebay and came up with over 200 examples. There were so many corvettes made that the value of them drops soon after purchased (like any other high volume car). A $50,000 Vette new is really not a bad price for the package but I never buy my cars new. I bought a Ford F350 for about $10k less that what it cost new with only 24K miles on it. I'll put another 150K miles on it before I am done.

As I mentioned before, in a recent rally, and old stock vette with race tires beat a much higher HP NEwer Z06 Vette without race tires. 10K puts a vette in nearly anyones price range. My brother keeps wanting me to take my Pantera to the track. I haven't for several reasons but I told him if I were to go to the track I'd get a ragged out old vette (For a lot less than $10K) and run it. He sugest the Pantera would do a lot better on the track but I would rather thrash out a ragged out old vette than thrash something I would have a hard time replaicing.

wouldn't be the obvious choice in Europe, C's are much rarer here and as far as I know hardly ever tuned for club racing, so finding an old one that is more or less ready for a nice on the track will be difficult. You would have to build up one by yourself and presumably there are cheaper options.

[cossie]

Im pretty sure it was from 1989 to 1995 they made the LT5. That engine was only found in the ZR1.If your considering picking up one youd be MUCH better off with something like an LS6. The LS6 is smaller, lighter(much lighter), and makes just as much, if not more power. Its also much easier to find, and get parts for.

Did they have any problems with the LT5,seems strange they discontinued the multi valve heads after the ZR1?