Audi A5 (8T) 2007-2015

[Ferrer]

One thing has to be said in Audis defence, their interiors are superbly put together.

[henk4]

One thing has to be said in Audis defence, their interiors are superbly put together.

yes, delivered by a French supplier, owned by PSA

[IBrake4Rainbows]

IB4R, I'm surely biased about Audi, what I didn't write there, is that for how much I think Audi is under performing as a brand (in my book) compared to BMW and MB, I don't like them either. BMWs aren't working design wise, and their technical superiority seems to be diluted by marketing stunts trying to back good achievements but perhaps not as ground breaking as they could have been/used to be/they wanted to be.

Cars have never been more technically advanced, more efficient in their engines, more safe, more reliable.

What more do you want? seriously?

MB is going in the wrong direction in the style compartment, as their cars still look massive and big, but lost the "grandpa" presence and don't inspire a sort of respect and reverence when you are in front of them.
Still, I don't think a C looks proportionally like a smaller S, and I don't think any of the 7 are distinguishable from a 3 just for the dimensions. Really different cars not only at a first distracted glance.

Indeed the 7 is a different car in size but the basic set up - grille goes here, lights go here - means that from a distracted glance as you put it I could confuse BMW models.

the Mercedes of Current are taking a Ferrari approach - that is aerodynamics and efficiency first and the design will follow.

That's not the case of an X-Type and of an XJ, which to the average audience are just a copy, resize, and paste.

Jaguar were milking that style for about 40 years. and in variations, it worked.

Besides, Audi are bought by old people over here, and Lexus is considered a luxury brand. About the XJ, I was considering the old one, which may lood old (to an enthusiast), but elegance nonetheless.

The reverse is true here - Lexus' are bought by the elderly, while Audi's are bought mostly by young rich folk or the upper class. It's still the third preferred logo, certainly, but it's not without gravitas.

The old XJ was a mistake. put in a marketplace where the 7 Series was challenging design aesthetics and looking forward, where the A8 was restraint without looking retro, and the S-class was...well, not sucking, the XJ looked too old, too staid, and basically despite it being a VERY good car, was never really taken seriously.

As an additional note, Audis are also generally purchase by people who don't know a damn thing about cars in general, let alone what Audi did in the past or even right now, how many times it won at Le Mans, or what are doing its competitors.

You are right in terms of Audi's being bought by those who don't know cars. But how many BMW's, Mercedes et al are bought by those who don't care if it's handling bias is perfectly weighted towards RWD fun? it's cute & it has a BMW badge on it!

Audi's great quality in terms of marketing is they have an image of design and elegance.

It's a choice for those who don't want to choice. Speaking out of experience of people I know.

So it's a great compromise. What's wrong with that? not everyone is an enthusiast.

I don't think Audi has a superiority in quality or attention to details either, not more than other brands really. Since the previous gen A6 their capability in penning aerodynamic cars has been obvious, but if that means such a slow and equalized evolution of the style, I guess something isn't working (again, in my book).

Refinement of a particular style is hardly a bad quality. it's not even a dead end (just ask Claus Luthe, who's work at BMW was essentially refining the same idea over & over).

People's needs and expectations don't change hugely overnight. People are comfortable and will buy familiarity.

Don't ever confuse slow with measured progress.

That's the same reason for blaming the 3rd gen Prius or even the new Insight. Both those vehicles are made to be overall as efficient as possible, still that's not the only shape to achieve a good aerodynamic.
I can see the Prius going for an evolution of the previous design, but not Honda.

There is also an element of trying to keep the successful elements of the previous cars going on with the Prius. It's very much of the same family but the details are different.

And the same can be said of Audi's. just because they share a family schnozz doesn't mean the surfacing can't change.

Back to Audi, when I look at their interiors, they jusy look like the (good) base infrastructure on which other brand infuse their touches, stuff, gizmos and other things.
Surely this is recognizable as an Audi thing as much as the exterior design, but again I think it's a product for those who are looking for a "premium" car, but they are not, generally of course, even at the first level of being an enthusiast.

As a designer I can tell you those who appreciate good design appreciate the process from which a design comes to fruition.

You are right in thinking Audi's are somewhat of a non-enthusiasts choice. Having said that, if there appeal transcends car enthusiasts and can reach the general public, they must be doing something right.

It's not a crime, but in this way Audi is becoming, still in my book, just a company, not a car company.

And what's a car company then?

Something with engineering passion, like BMW? oh wait, they're just in it for the money.

Something with class, elegance, sophistication, like Mercedes Benz? oh wait, don't they do the Vito van, and aren't they just in it for the money?

I don't mean to burst your bubble but I think you're romantic notion of the car company is really a little bit off. these are businesses and as such they operate under the ideal that profit and sales uber alles. Market share, brand recognition and association (qualities you've bought into when you think a company like Alfa Romeo is somehow more than a car company and in fact is a way of life) are all more important than the "enthusiast", which is just a nice way of saying that the byproduct of all this profit is the occasional car that drives nicely or looks good.

Audi's fault is there obvious in their desire to make money? please. BMW, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, all brands with much more romantic notions of performance, speed, elegance - and all horrific whores for money.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Cars have never been more technically advanced, more efficient in their engines, more safe, more reliable.

What more do you want? seriously?

Passion, excitement, something less cold, is it too much?

Indeed the 7 is a different car in size but the basic set up - grille goes here, lights go here - means that from a distracted glance as you put it I could confuse BMW models.

I don't agree really My mother wouldn't confuse them, maybe a 5 with a 7 because they are nearly as big, surely not with a 3. And she don't know what a 3, a 5 or a 7 Series is.

The old XJ was a mistake. put in a marketplace where the 7 Series was challenging design aesthetics and looking forward, where the A8 was restraint without looking retro, and the S-class was...well, not sucking, the XJ looked too old, too staid, and basically despite it being a VERY good car, was never really taken seriously.

I'd say people didn't even know it was available or a new car in first place

You are right in terms of Audi's being bought by those who don't know cars. But how many BMW's, Mercedes et al are bought by those who don't care if it's handling bias is perfectly weighted towards RWD fun? it's cute & it has a BMW badge on it!

Audi's great quality in terms of marketing is they have an image of design and elegance.

MB and BMW aren't enthusiasts as a given fact, neither are Alfa's or Ferrari's, but they rely on a general, diffused and consolidated idea of the brand.
Now iirc Audi hadn't a great image of design and elegance up to 15 years ago, the A3 was a new car for the segment, but got accepted on a snap by customers just thanks to a good marketing I think, the same way the 1 Series worked, while the 3 Compact has never been a success. And that's before the cars can actually demonstrate what they really are.
Having a good marketing office isn't the same of having a good product.

So it's a great compromise. What's wrong with that? not everyone is an enthusiast.

but we are, and I'm saying from our (mine) point of view it isn't working.

People's needs and expectations don't change hugely overnight. People are comfortable and will buy familiarity.

Don't ever confuse slow with measured progress.

And I'm saying this measured progress is just too little, and too low.
I liked the former A6, I liked the first A4, somehow even the TT, then they just became boring, and new products always failed to raise a bit of smile in me.

And the same can be said of Audi's. just because they share a family schnozz doesn't mean the surfacing can't change.

that's the deal, that's "changing" for you, because you are a designer, so you see and understand shapes more than others. I recognize their cars aren't the "same" but trying to think with my mother/father eyes, of an average person and a non enthusiast, they are just the same thing since years.

As a designer I can tell you those who appreciate good design appreciate the process from which a design comes to fruition.

as you said, we aren't all enthusiasts, let alone designers .

And what's a car company then?

Something with engineering passion, like BMW? oh wait, they're just in it for the money.

Something with class, elegance, sophistication, like Mercedes Benz? oh wait, don't they do the Vito van, and aren't they just in it for the money?

I don't mean to burst your bubble but I think you're romantic notion of the car company is really a little bit off. these are businesses and as such they operate under the ideal that profit and sales uber alles. Market share, brand recognition and association (qualities you've bought into when you think a company like Alfa Romeo is somehow more than a car company and in fact is a way of life) are all more important than the "enthusiast", which is just a nice way of saying that the byproduct of all this profit is the occasional car that drives nicely or looks good.

Audi's fault is there obvious in their desire to make money? please. BMW, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, all brands with much more romantic notions of performance, speed, elegance - and all horrific whores for money.

If the point for you behind each company is only money, what's the point of being an enthusiast then?
Besides, I'm sure that as a compnay they do care about money and a lot, but I didn't say that's the only thing Audi bother about.
What I'm trying to say is that they are offering just a safe product, a "measured" evolved design (which is the first thing to appeal the customer, more then their super-uber-last-technology which he won't understand, ever) without "risking", without adding a personal touch (that, or their touch is being plain boring, still in my opinion) or an element of passion towards what they are creating.
I don't feel like they are in love with what they do. As a company Audi could not care about what it is selling, being candies or cars, but probably the people that worked on each car do care about them.

Consider Walter de Silva, their head of design. He penned some good looking car in various years.
Both for the Fiat Group and for VAG. Then he comes out saying the A5 Coupe is the best car he ever designed. Which is fine, even if I don't agree, even if I like the A5 the most among other present Audis.
It's a huge evolution, in my opinion, on the A4 sedan, which just seems squashed and a mix between the two previous gen A4s. the A5 is muscular while still being clearly and Audi product, so something pretty simple at first sight, with plain surfaces.
Then why do you have to force a sedan look in it just because that design worked?
You got a slightly different Audi which looks good, and I can't stand why now it will be the design basis for all the next cars which I'm afraid they are not going to be significantly different over it 8still thinking, or trying to think with J. Average eye).
There was the previous gen A6. Then came the new A4, which was just a bit smaller A6, with a proper sedan look rather than a 5 door. The A8 lost his dynamism becoming a squared A4 and alrger A8, with the new A6 being the perfect fix between the two, being designed just to be the second frame of a gif.
The new A4 I already express what I think about it, and the A4 Avant is basically just an A6 Avant. Not for me and you, but for the average Joe, yes.

I don't like this, but what really bother me is that they manage to sell their cars to people pretending to understand and know about cars, not just dudes saying "I want a good and well refined car", while we just stated (I think we agree on this, right?) it is an enthusiasts' brand.
So what I'm aiming at is that it's a sort of fake brand, as far as its image is concerned.
People buy them, but they actually don't know why. Some of them don't know if the car is fwd or rwd, some don't know the engine is the same of a Golf (nothing wrong about that right now), other just decided to bought an A6 without even being able to recognize it at the dealer (I swear).
it's the same for people saying they bought the first gen modern Mini when the second was just released because " I prefer this one" when I myself was struggling to find the differences at first. Come on, you just wanted the Mini because it's cool, you can say that. Don't pretend to be an expert.

So if this was what they were looking for, good for them, they managed to conquer a market, a very healthy one.
Still that's properly the reason why I don't like them.


EDIT: I think this discussion is going a bit too far. I see you points IB4R, and probably they are exactly my problem with Audi. Don't want to flame a war on this tough.

[Ferrer]

Maybe that's not the thread for the discussion, but please don't stop, it's a very interesting discussion to me.

My take on the subject is not that Audis look all the same or not. In that aspect I think I pretty much agree with what IB4R says. That's not the problem. In fact bar the massive grille, they are quite good looking cars with top of the class interior.

What really drives me up the wall is when someone mentions an Audi (R8 excepted) as a drivers car. Quite apart from the fact that they are overpriced VWs, Audis drive awfully to anyone who has a modicum of understanding of how a car works.

Audis really are a triumph of style over substance. They appear to be sporty, and that's what matters to most of their costumers. It doesn't matter that the steering is dead, that it has miles of understeer, nose heaviness or the simply unacceptable ride.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Passion, excitement, something less cold, is it too much?

God is in the details. (Mies van der Rohe)

I don't agree really My mother wouldn't confuse them, maybe a 5 with a 7 because they are nearly as big, surely not with a 3. And she don't know what a 3, a 5 or a 7 Series is.

then how could she not confuse them?

she knows them as the little bmw, the mid bmw and the big bmw.

I'd say people didn't even know it was available or a new car in first place

Which I daresay was kind of the intention.

MB and BMW aren't enthusiasts as a given fact, neither are Alfa's or Ferrari's, but they rely on a general, diffused and consolidated idea of the brand.

Something you buy into when you mention the beautiful world of "Passion".

Now iirc Audi hadn't a great image of design and elegance up to 15 years ago.....

The 1 series worked because of timing. Yuppies were downsizing, BMW releases a premium hatch...PROFIT!

The Engineering and Driving passion of the car has little to do with it's success.

Having a good marketing office isn't the same of having a good product.

But it's a damn good substitute. Just ask Citroen.

but we are, and I'm saying from our (mine) point of view it isn't working.

Thats because you're coming from an extreme point of view - the view of the enthusiast in which every action must involve passion and vision.

Again you're doubting passion because of efficiency and that inheirant belief that because a car is liked by the general public is must be shockingly average.

And I'm saying this measured progress is just too little, and too low.
....

The old A6 was masterly in design, as was the TT. The follow ups were always going to be difficult. I happen to think they haven't done a bad job.

the First A4....well I'm glad they kept at it.

that's the deal, that's "changing" for you, because you are a designer, so you see and understand shapes more than others.....

But they're not, thats what I'm saying. the subtle nuances and shifts in surface language, detailing and design indicate a quantum shift in thinking, thats matched in such a way as to maintain a lineage and not devalue the brand.

I'll use the age old adage of Apple computers. the iPod is the same each iteration, but there are little differences that make it that much more modern, more interesting. a shift in material, a rounded or sharpened edge.

and people buy it.

as you said, we aren't all enthusiasts, let alone designers

.

you don't have to be a designer to appreciate good design. It helps though

If the point for you behind each company is only money, what's the point of being an enthusiast then?

the concept of the enthusiast is that of the fanboy - blind love. and it's outdated.

Besides, I'm sure that as a compnay they do care about money and a lot, but I didn't say that's the only thing Audi bother about.

The implication was that Audi is somehow less of a company because they're focus is on something other than engineering or technical excellence.

which, I might add, it isn't.

What I'm trying to say is that they are offering just a safe product, a "measured" evolved design (which is .......

There is little wrong with giving the customer what they want. Just ask BMW (lets make a fat SUV?!)

Passion comes in many forms. some have a passion for flair and outlandish action. others find the passion in the smallest flick of a pen. thats where Audi find their design passion at least - in the details.

I don't feel like they are in love with what they do. As a company Audi could not care about what it is selling, being candies or cars, but probably the people that worked on each car do care about them.

This is fundamentally where I think you've drawn a distinction between Audi and other companies who are essentially EXACTLY THE SAME as Audi. You consider companies like Alfa Romeo and Lancia to be Passionate, to care about what they sell...Really? moreso than Audi?

Really?

I'm sorry but I find your distinction to be false.

Consider Walter de Silva, their head of design. He penned some good looking car in various years.
Both for the Fiat Group and for VAG. Then he comes out saying the A5 Coupe is the best car he ever designed. Which is fine, even if I don't agree, even if I like the A5 the most among other present Audis.

De Silva's work within Audi is a masterstroke of rocking the boat without rocking the boat. He doesn't rely on big gestures like Bangle or Arcadipane to get his point of evolution across. his team have studied the characteristics of the legacy Schreyer left Audi and continued the important points, while at the same time modernising and keeping with a desire for more complex surfaces and shapes.

I think your problem is you can't recognise subtlety.

It's a huge evolution, in my opinion, on the A4 sedan, which just seems squashed and a mix between the two previous gen A4s. the A5 is muscular while still being clearly and Audi product, so something pretty simple at first sight, with plain surfaces.

And this is the problem I have with your argument. you've confused simple with simplistic.

Refer to my points about history and the future RE De Silva's work.

Then why do you have to force a sedan look in it just because that design worked?
You got a slightly different Audi which looks good, and I can't stand why now it will be the design basis for all the next cars which I'm afraid they are not going to be significantly different over it 8still thinking, or trying to think with J. Average eye).

As much as people enjoy brave design choices (and they do change the world), what they all end up buying is the same sort of car.

the best analogy I can come up with is that Audi design is a black pair of jeans. Impeccibly tailored, with great fabric, well detailed pockets and buttons. Yes, it's a black pair of jeans, but, as mies says, God is in the details.

There was the previous gen A6. Then came the new A4, which was just a bit smaller A6, with a proper sedan look rather than a 5 door. The A8 lost his dynamism becoming a squared A4 and alrger A8, with the new A6 being the perfect fix between the two, being designed just to be the second frame of a gif.

Each has their own character though. the A4 is more teutonic and playful in surface treatment, the A6 more rounded and friendly, while the A8 has developed much like a Party - it started with a stiff collar and done up tie, now it's relaxed the tie and is starting to let go.

The new A4 I already express what I think about it, and the A4 Avant is basically just an A6 Avant. Not for me and you, but for the average Joe, yes.

Well, no. Because Average joe looks at price and Badge - like checking the label to see the difference between a lower & higher brand.

I don't like this, but what really bother me is that they manage to sell their cars to people pretending to understand and know about cars, not just dudes saying "I want a good and well refined car", while we just stated (I think we agree on this, right?) it is an enthusiasts' brand.

Ahhh, so you think they're poseurs?

any more so than those who buy the right brand so they look like an enthusiast?

So what I'm aiming at is that it's a sort of fake brand, as far as its image is concerned.

The only fake brand is one that tries to advertise itself differently to how people react to it.

The untrained reaction to Audi is "quality".

People buy them, but they actually don't know why. Some of them don't know if the car is fwd or rwd, some don't know the engine is the same of a Golf (nothing wrong about that right now), other just decided to bought an A6 without even being able to recognize it at the dealer (I swear).

How is that any different to any other car company, save for the high end bespoke people like Bentley?

You're confusing hatred with stupid people for hatred of a Brand. mostly because, in your mind, you've associated the two.

it's the same for people saying they bought the first gen modern Mini when the second was just released because " I prefer this one" when I myself was struggling to find the differences at first. Come on, you just wanted the Mini because it's cool, you can say that. Don't pretend to be an expert.

I prefer the first generation mini for multiple design reasons (the second one is overstyled to within an inch of it's life, for instance, and the headlights aren't an improvement).

Again I think we've established your problem is not with Audi, it's with Poseurs. and thats a problem with most brands

So if this was what they were looking for, good for them, they managed to conquer a market, a very healthy one.
Still that's properly the reason why I don't like them.

Again, Audi's aim was to create profit for it's shareholders.

It did so by marketing they're cars as premium products.

If a certain segment of that community buys there cars, you think Audi are going to turn them away because they're money isn't as good as someone elses?

EDIT: I think this discussion is going a bit too far. I see you points IB4R, and probably they are exactly my problem with Audi. Don't want to flame a war on this tough.

To be honest it's a bit symptomatic of a very negative attitude that has permeated UCP.

I don't want a flame war either, so I shall leave it here

[LeonOfTheDead]

this is becoming a nitpicking-semantic discussion.
sorry but I can't even read your answer now
The war is over, keep your land, I'll keep mine.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I won I won

[jaromull]

I won I won

Oh.... Really ????

[Ferrer]

The new A5. Which loooks pretty much exactly the same as the old one. Or any other Audi for that matter #10

[Ferrer]

The new A5. Which loooks pretty much exactly the same as the old one. Or any other Audi for that matter #11

[Ferrer]

The new A5. Which loooks pretty much exactly the same as the old one. Or any other Audi for that matter #12

[Ferrer]

The new A5. Which loooks pretty much exactly the same as the old one. Or any other Audi for that matter #13

[Ferrer]

The new A5. Which loooks pretty much exactly the same as the old one. Or any other Audi for that matter #14

[Ferrer]

The new A5. Which loooks pretty much exactly the same as the old one. Or any other Audi for that matter #15