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  #61  
Old 03-19-2012, 01:48 AM
dog ear dog ear is offline
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Here is the 2nd article from June, or July, 1969 Hot Rod magazine.
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File Type: jpg 6906 HR S&M 440-6V Ply RR (1).jpg (316.2 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 6906 HR S&M 440-6V Ply RR (2).jpg (206.3 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 6906 HR S&M 440-6V Ply RR (3).jpg (288.9 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 6906 HR S&M 440-6V Ply RR (4).jpg (314.1 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 6906 HR S&M 440-6V Ply RR (5).jpg (379.4 KB, 4 views)
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  #62  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:07 AM
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Hey Fleet, I dig the 440 Six Pack / Six BBL itself I would have liked to have owned one back in the day, but they were not very good street going machines. For one thing; you would not have had that hood for long. Somebody would have stolen it first chance they got. Same thief probably would have lifted the carbs and intake at the same time.

I drove in a few Six Packs / Six BBLs in my time and every time I went away with mixed reviews. Each car was vastly different in state of tune. They never did perform the same. Some bogged off the line if you gave them too much gas; while others had a flat spot just off idle. It amounted to the same thing; problematic carburetor adjustments.

End carbs were vacuum-controlled and not well synchronized to the center carb from the factory. You really needed to re-jet and screw with the end carbs vacuum in order for them to work properly. Not many people knew how. You had the same kind of thing with duel four barrels. Multiple carbs were not very practical on most of those big blocks, unless you went to mechanical linkage, and performed a re-jet. After that, you attacked the ignition and modified the distributer timing with less advance, more initial and more total. Once you went that far, you might as well buy headers and slap them on and forget about it. Then you had a solid base to play with the big boys.

I actually preferred the Dodge Super Bee over the Plymouth Road Runner for one very good reason. Gauges were much better in the Bee. They were standard high ticket Charger items. Styling was a toss-up between the two.

Another thing! I have a lot of road tests on the first year 440-6 ‘Bee and ‘Runner, and that June 1969 Drag Racing magazine article struck a chord while reading it. The claimed 12.98 ET @ 111.66 mph got me thinking. It seemed too good to be true so I checked my data files and came away with a smile.

While the times are out-of-sight, you should know that that particular RR was almost certainly a 'ringer.' Those times were not factory stock I can assure you. The car was definitely 'super-tuned,' and modified.

I will post two interesting articles here that feature the very same car and tell the same story. Both magazines categorically state that the car in question was not stock.

I am not sure if the exact same car pictured in the two articles I am posting is the same vehicle in the June 69 Drag Racing article you posted. All three articles elude to a red car being tested but the plates are different in your article. That in itself is meaningless because the manufacturers switched plates at will. Otherwise identical cars may have different paint jobs and either manufacturer or dealer plates installed for various tests and or reasons. Same thing happened with wheels and tires. All can and did get switched for marketing reasons.

If any of you should want to read Super Bee articles I can post some. Let me know.

Here is the first article from JUne, 1969 Super Stock & Drag Illustrated magazine.
Yes, the carbs on the 440-6 bbl engine were hard to adjust. For most people, a big 4-bbl would be more practical. And I would prefer a regular hood. Not only because it's less likely to be stolen but because it's easier to lift to check the engine.

I also prefer the Super Bee. As a rule, I prefer Dodge over Plymouth, even though I currently own a Plymouth. The Dodges seem better appointed on the inside.

The '69 Road Runner was almost certainly supertuned (no big deal; many owners themselves did that). I remember reading that particular Road Runner used in the test was checked for internal mods after the test and none were found. A stock (except for things like bigger jets in the carb and fiddling with the timing and vacuum advance) '69 400-6 bbl Road Runner or 440-6 Pack Super Bee was certainly capable of times like 13.5s and 13.4s with an amateur driver. So it's possible for it to run low, low-13s and possibly high-12s with a professional drag racer. Remember we are talking about only bare tenths of a second and reaction time can make a difference as well as shifting ability.
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Last edited by Fleet 500; 03-19-2012 at 02:11 AM.
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  #63  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dog ear View Post
Here is the 2nd article from June, or July, 1969 Hot Rod magazine.
Thanks for posting that. I don't have that one. Those 440 wedge engines were very strong!
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  #64  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:23 AM
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Ringer's ain't just a thing of the past either; Ferrari hots up their press cars.

Chris Harris has been blacklisted by Ferrari after an expose he wrote for Jalopnik a few months ago.

The funny thing about it is that he said he had driven customer Ferraris and they were fantastic; Ferrari was needlesly paranoid.
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  #65  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
Ringer's ain't just a thing of the past either; Ferrari hots up their press cars.

Chris Harris has been blacklisted by Ferrari after an expose he wrote for Jalopnik a few months ago.

The funny thing about it is that he said he had driven customer Ferraris and they were fantastic; Ferrari was needlesly paranoid.
Yeah, good point. I can see that happening especially with exotic, expensive cars. Also, I remember seeing an article in which some hi-po cars tested could not reach the claimed top speed by the manufacturer.
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  #66  
Old 03-19-2012, 03:07 AM
dog ear dog ear is offline
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True enough about ringers then and now.

Fleet I know that the cam in that article was never put in regular production 440+6s except for a very, very few pre-production cars just like the articles stated. I know this because I rebuilt those Six Packs in the seventies and eighties and all of them came with the production 383 / 440 Magnum camshats.

Yes, I know that you could tune them and that they could go into the 13s, but, you still had to be able to do it yourself. I drove them and I know how hard it was to get deep into the 13s. It took finesse, and alot of work. Truth is 440-4V Magnums were almost as quick with same amount of tuning and you did not have to fool with three Holleys. Just go out and purchase an aftermarket intake and rejet your existing Carter, or get a replacement 780 4V Holley.

I will post a couple more mag articles:

June 1969 Hot Rod
Here is a more realistic look at what you could possibly expect from these car when they were new. This is more in line with what a good driver was getting in these cars. You will see that they are still supertuned. Most people never even tuned their cars beyond the factory specs. Only hot rodders done that, and not that many went the full rejet and iinition route either.

To properly modifiy the distributer meant taking it out and completely doing away with the factory springs and / or modifying them. Then, you had to dail in the right amount of initial, advance and total timing in order to take advantage of your engines potential. Most guys did not have that know how. You usually had to take it to a speed shop. That meant extra money that most guys did not have, especially AFTER PURCHASING CARB RREBUILT KITS AND OBTAINING THE PROPER JETS, along wit numerous other little parts you needed to get the job done right.

Yes, some guys performed all of their own work, but, again, they were few and far betweeen. Just like today. I am not saying that these cars could not perform the way they done in the magazines. Do not get me wrong. They could and did wth the right mods and the right driver.

In an earlier post in another thread on this site I said that the Cobra Jet Mustangs would ET in the mid 14s for a good reason. That is because the average driver could not take the Stang in to the 13s without supertuning them and then knowing how to drive.
Mine did go in the mid 13s often.

I took my CJ to Cayuga and hit 12.74 @ 108 mph, but it was modified. 4.30.1 Traction-Lok, Goodyear 8.50 D4 Slicks, headers, 427-4V Sidewinder intake, advanced timing, and a rejetted 780 Holley. On the street it was a low 13-sec car if yo did not blow the tires away. Let's say 13.3 - 13.5 average. In 1969, the C/S national record for my car was 12.62 / 110 mph, something very close to that. You could not get those times on the street and remain stock.

I like all those old musclecars but you had to really be pretty sharp at the wheel in order to get close to a 13-sec flat time without making serious P. Very few cars ever did. I knew alot of bullshitters that promised that their car would but when it came down to it, not many had the snuff. Even Hemis and Rats, that were modifiied. Low 13s on the street, yes, of course.

Here's the June 1969 Hot Rod test
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 6908 HR SuperBee 440+6 (1).jpg (182.7 KB, 5 views)
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  #67  
Old 03-19-2012, 03:23 AM
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Here is the July, 1969 Car Life test
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File Type: jpg 6907 CL 69 Super Bee 6-Pack (1).jpg (155.5 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 6907 CL 69 Super Bee 6-Pack (2).jpg (158.0 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 6907 CL 69 Super Bee 6-Pack (3).jpg (174.4 KB, 2 views)
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  #68  
Old 03-19-2012, 03:52 AM
dog ear dog ear is offline
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...and one more
1969 High Performance Cars (date unknown)

Sorry, last page is missing.

Anyone know the date this article was published?

One final note, these cars were really fast if you drove half decent. They were exciting, rough, and constantly reminded you that you were driving a car meant for the strip.

Personally, I like the 1970 models better. A good of mines brother bought a 1970 Hemi Orange Road Runner w 4-spd & 3.54.1 Trac Pak. Cool!

Wanna talk really cool? Circa 1978 I was on the streetcar heading down town Younge street one Saturday morning and I spotted a B5 Blue 70 Superbird parked at parliment Motors used car dealership, on the corner of Parliment and Queen St. in Toronto.

Actually I had seen the car sitting there for several weeks. So I got off the streetcar, and wandered across the road and checked rthat mother out. After a bit a salesman walked up and began his usual spiel but, I ignored hi and concentrated on the 'Bird before me.

$6500.00 was steep in those days and that's why it wasn't selling. I told the salesman that and he only shruggwed pointing towards the office and his boss no doubt. Didn't matter to me. I never had the 'coin' either, but, I made him an offer thart he couldn't refuse.

I told him that I wanted to take it out alone for a test drive but he was not enthusiastic about that. I told him to get the keys, give them to me and fade for about an hour, or so, and I would give him $50.00 bucks. He said $100.00, and we split the diff. He got $75.oo and I got the Bird.

It was an automatic 3.23.1 440 6BBL and in fine shape. Blue w black buckets. I swing off of Queen and headed for the Gardner Expressway, via Cherry St., and the Lakeshore Blvd.

Once on the Gardner, I opened her up up over 110 mph pretty quickly. Slowed for cops and made the turn around out at Dunn Ave and headed back. From there I hit the Don Valley Expressway and headed fro the 401. To make a long story short, I 'tested' that prize for over two hours. It was a blast.

I can tell you that it would only go about 135 mph that day. I thought that it should have gone much more than that, say, 140 mph anyway, but it did not have the balls.

As for thew quarter mile? Perhaps mid 14s best. I actually took a run against a 383 Magnum 'Runner that was just as quick but, never had the oats top end. That's it for the 440 tonight folks.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 6900 HPC 440SixPack (1).jpg (126.0 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 6900 HPC 440SixPack (2).jpg (115.3 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 6900 HPC 440SixPack (3).jpg (181.5 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 6900 HPC 440SixPack (4).jpg (152.3 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 6900 HPC 440SixPack (5).jpg (15.8 KB, 2 views)
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  #69  
Old 03-19-2012, 11:16 AM
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That is an absolutely awesome story. I pictured your drive in my head!

I do deliveries down there all the time and have friends that live on Dunn, so I know exactly where you are talking about.

What corner was it on at Queen and Parliament? NE, NW, etc? Down the road, there's a dealership that specializes in 1990s Benzes and Alfas called Forli Motors on the southwest corner of Parliament and Richmond. It is common for them to have a black Alfa 164, so I always check for that.

Also you can check out Porsche Downtown, Volvo, Infiniti, Volkswagen right there. It seems to be a popular place for dealerships; I guess the land is cheaper on the east end of downtown and it's accessible for the wealthy urban clientele. BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes all have big dealers just east of there off the DVP.
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  #70  
Old 03-19-2012, 01:38 PM
dog ear dog ear is offline
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Parliment Motoers was located on the South-East cornor, Kitdy. I know exactly where Forli Motors is located. I used to know an Italian guy that worked there in the mid-seventies. That, service center always catered to expensive foriegn automobiles-their specialty, although I am not sure if it was called Forli Motors back then.

How about the gas station on the opposite cornor? Is it still there? I thought it was a Sunoco but I could be wrong; perhaps a BP. Another guy I knew used to work there midnight shift. He drove a 69 Mustang Sportsroof GT just like mine, color included. Only difference was his had 14''x7'' Cragar S/S wheels, where mine rolled on 14''x7'' Keystone Daisy Classics. Mine were shod with G60-14 Dunlop Qualifier GT Polyglass tires back, and G-70s up front. I beleive that this guy had his running on Uniroyal G70-14 Tiger Paws f/r.
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  #71  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:32 PM
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Dog ear, thanks for posting those. I have that Car Life road test of the 440-6 Pack Super Bee. Interesting that they got the 1/4 mile down to a 13.75 @ 104.52 mph. Compared to the Drag Racing test I posted, this 'Bee had an automatic transmission, it weighed more than the Drag Racing test car and had a non-professional driver.

I do have the other magazine (Cars) but not the first one you posted. Regarding the Cars test, they should have put the 13.98@ 104 mph in the tests results box instead of the listed 14.85 @ 99 mph (that must have been the first run). Looks like they had a problem shifting the 4-speed manual. That did happen with some Mopars; sometimes the 4-speed was easy to shift and sometimes it was balky.

A few things to keep in mind...
The '70 440-6 bbl Road Runner which is in the test I posted earlier (from Car & Driver) shows a best 1/4 mile of 13.47 sec. Again, compared to the '69 RR from Drag Racing magazine, this '70 RR had an automatic transmission and weighed more than the '69 RR. With a '70 RR running 13.47, I think low-13s/high-12s is possible, again with no or low options (to keep the weight down), a professional driver, 4-speed manual transmission and 4.10 gears. And, of course, the engine in good condition and maybe a recent tune and new spark plugs added. Remember, a professional driver can cut 2-3 tenths (or more) of one second off the e.t.

Here is a road test from Popular Hot Rodding magazine (Aug., 1969). A '69 Super Bee 440-6 Pack and a '69 'Cuda 440-4 bbl.

The Super Bee had 4.10 gears and automatic transmission. No modifications or slicks or headers. A very good 13.40 @ 105.26 mph. The potential is certainly there for one equipped with a 4-speed and driven by a professional to run about 13.0 seconds.

Another thing to consider... with hundreds of thousands of the 440 engine built, some of course ran a little faster (or slower) than average. This can be demonstrated by the 'Cuda 440 in the shown in the same test as the Super Bee. It ran a 14.47 @ 99.66 mph. Definitely slower than average. They testers did say that the car seemed to "fall off" before reaching the lights.

Anyway, the typical 440-6 bbl Road Runner and 440-6 Pack were solid 13-second cars (under favorable conditions) and I wouldn't mind owning one!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 69beecuda.JPG (858.2 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 69beecuda2ucp.JPG (818.2 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 69beecuda3ucp.JPG (973.6 KB, 7 views)
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  #72  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:35 PM
dog ear dog ear is offline
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Quote:
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Parliment Motoers was located on the South-East cornor, Kitdy. I know exactly where Forli Motors is located.
Correction!
You said that Forli Motors is on the southwest corner of Parliament and Richmond, right?

The place I was referring to was actually on the Northwest corner of Parliament and Richmond.

If memory serves me there was also a dealership on the Southwest corner where you say Forli Motors is today. At that time, I seem to remember more Jags and Ferraris in the NW locale. I always thought of it as being a shop for sports cars rather than luxury oriented autos but then again, anything foreign and thus deemed complicated was to be seen there from time to time. It used to have a chain-link fence surrounding the premises so guys like me would not be tempted to lift anything. LOL!
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  #73  
Old 03-19-2012, 07:23 PM
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Thanks for posting the road test from Popular Hot Rodding magazine (Aug., 1969) with the '69 Super Bee 440-6 Pack and a '69 'Cuda 440-4 bbl.

I understand the points you are making in terms of performance for these cars. Certainly, low 13s were possible with a highly tuned engine, luck, and alot of finesse. In my observations there were no stock engined 12-sec cars running around the streets with stock tires.

You would hear of such things but rarely if ever would someone 'back' it up with solid times. At any rate, you would need to go to the drag strip in order to find out exactly what any vehicle would do unlike todays cars, where some are capable of administering that task from in-dash computers.

Fastest musclecars around Toronto were usually thinly disguised street bruisers with highly modiifed engine transplants and other drivetrain mods installed.

Case in Point: Geroge Brown's 1965 Chevy Impala SS (I believe it was an original 409/400 HP model) with an L-88 Rat and a Hurst Super Shifted 4-spd and 4.56.1 12-Bolt Posi. It was painted bright Roman Red with black interior.

15'' Cragar S/Ss all around, jacked up with suspension mods, and a very bad assed attitude. Inside it sported a chrome chain steering wheel, Big Foot Monster masg chrome gas pedal, and a pair of black fizzy dice hanging off the mirrior on the windshield.

L-88 Rat was decorated with Chrome finned M/T valve covers, open element low-profile chrome air cleaner and big-tube Hooker Headers and huge 'stright-through' pipes. George also had the engine chained down with a chromed engine strap.

In those days people really beleived the oft-told myth that GM products like the big block rats made so much power that they broke engine mounts, thus the need for engine straps.

In fact nothing was further from the truth. Gm actually had an engineering problem with all of their lines throughout the sixties and early seventies. They refused to 'fix' the motor mount issue throughout and managed to keep the it quiet with alot of damage control.

You can probably google this fact up and read it for yourself. If memory serves, Popular Mechanics and Popular Science ran a page every month publishing any and all defects and / or recalls for all cars, and this was a constant source of embarrassment for GM. Since PM has most of their back issues on a web site you can check it out. Hot rod type mags posted the problem also.

Yet, to this day, you will sometimes hear this nonesense about the excess GM powertrain issue and the percieved 'need' to chain 'em down. LOL!

If that were the case then many small block powered full size luxury barges with standard 2V equipped engines ceertainly should have went the chain 'em down route. I had an aunt and uncle with the same problem on their 1967 340-4V Buick LeSabre. Right-side engine mount went with only 70,00 miles on car. They quoted Buick as having too much power...

Anyway, another 12-sec car in East End T,O, was a very potent silver 1965 Mustang Fastback. Owner lived in East York and worked out of the gas station located on Dawes Road, just a few blocks osuth from Victoria Park Ave.

It was said that he installed a Boss 302 with numerous mods throuhout the car. This was certainly true with about 500 ponies undedr the hood. You never mistook his car if he was coming straight at you, because, you could see the dual remote oil filters poking out from under the front end for aded oil insurnce at high rpm.

More your speed was a Hemi Orange 'n' black 1969 340 Dodge Dart Swinger laced with speed equipment. Supposedly rated somewhere around 425 HP. She really rocked the boat. Sounded fierce.

Or how about a Midnight Blue 1965 Mustang coupe with 1 built 289 that screamed to 8500 rpm? It was tunnel-rammed with dual 660 Holley double-pumpers and a Fairlane Thunderbolt style teardrop hoodscoop. Could not miss them cars running around. I never heard of any factory stock musclecar going up against these dudes. All wewre solid 12-secd girlies with very bright headlights. LOL!
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  #74  
Old 03-19-2012, 07:39 PM
dog ear dog ear is offline
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In an earlier post on another thread on this web site I talked about my teenagew experiences on the street of Toronto. I mentioned seeing a bight red 1964 Ford Gallaxie 427-425 HP bad boy parked out at George Massicotte's garage in Scarborough, Ontario.

I also said that fellow Ontarian racer Barrie Poole drove the car to many on-track wins in his formulative years. I remember the car weel. Here is a picture of a legitimate 12-sec car with factory supertune and mods. Check this cars history out on google. Cool, baby!
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  #75  
Old 03-19-2012, 10:03 PM
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Since we are speaking about old metal, I actually saw a Mach 1 at an Etobicoke landmark - Tom's Dairy Freeze - tonight.

A pretty ugly and bulky thing to be honest.

EDIT: It was between a '71 and '73.
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