Your move dear friend.
I dunno what I've gotten myself into and I may find myself changing my mind but this should be fun.
Printable View
Your move dear friend.
I dunno what I've gotten myself into and I may find myself changing my mind but this should be fun.
Post whore.
[center][img]http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/23/tits_or_gtfo.jpg[/img][/center]
I'll try being mature.
Only the Pony cars are somewhat interesting. You don't have many small cars to choose from, and in the real world of narrow roads and speed limits you can have some damn fun in them. You say the Fit is all you'll ever need (can't be bothered about the toy car) and that it's fine but it isn't. Not compared to a 500 Abarth or a Twingo RS.
For the price of a 500 Abarth or a Twingo RS you could have a much more fun pony car Ferrer, or a Genesis Coupe. You say there's more to the difference in prices than the exchange rate, but I think we should look up a PPP pay rate somehow - you're in economics you know more about this than I do.
Where else in the world do you get a better combination of cars and value than in the NA? Are you telling me that if you were a gearhead you'd prefer to live in Europe than in North America where cars are cheap, sexy, and gas is way less?
EDIT:
[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;885353]Post whore.[/QUOTE]
Quiet you.
[QUOTE=Rockefella;885355][center][img]http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/23/tits_or_gtfo.jpg[/img][/center][/QUOTE]
( . )( . ) Tits, GTF In.
[QUOTE=Ferrer;885356]I'll try being mature.[/QUOTE]
As will I... mostly. I hope you liked the thread title.
We don't have interesting superminis, we don't have hot hatches (at least not as many as Europe has, far less), we don't have Alfa's, no Citroën's, no Renault's (except for Renault 5's but dear god let's forget we do shall we), no Fiat's, no SEAT's...
AND THE LIST GOES ON *use [I]And the Beat Goes on[/I] by The Whipers here for additional effect*
Seriously, I certainly wouldn't have ended up with an Aveo if we had as many choices as Europeans do in the cheap cars field.
[QUOTE=Kitdy;885363]For the price of a 500 Abarth or a Twingo RS you could have a much more fun pony car Ferrer, or a Genesis Coupe. You say there's more to the difference in prices than the exchange rate, but I think we should look up a PPP pay rate somehow - you're in economics you know more about this than I do.
Where else in the world do you get a better combination of cars and value than in the NA? Are you telling me that if you were a gearhead you'd prefer to live in Europe than in North America where cars are cheap, sexy, and gas is way less?[/QUOTE]
Cars are cheap. And bland. And boring. And it's difficult to find manuals.
I doubt a Twingo RS costs the same as a Genesis Coupe or a Mustang. And trust me on this you could have a lot of fun in it. Don't dismiss it because it's a front wheel drive econobox. Front wheel drive econoboxes can be fun. More fun than BMWs.
[QUOTE=fisetdavid26;885365]Seriously, I certainly wouldn't have ended up with an Aveo if we had as many choices as Europeans do in the cheap cars field.[/QUOTE]
If you lived in Europe, you'd have paid one and a half times what you paid for the Aveo for an equivalent car.
I'd take the Aveo at 2/3rds the price.
[QUOTE=Kitdy;885363]
Where else in the world do you get a better combination of cars and value than in the NA? Are you telling me that if you were a gearhead you'd prefer to live in Europe than in North America where cars are cheap, sexy, and gas is way less?[/QUOTE]
This debate you guys are having will end up being something similar to a Republican and a Democrat trying to convince one another that their party is superior. North America and Europe have entirely different styles of motoring. There's a reason that the Mustang thrives in the states while cars like the Abarth essesse are adored in Europe. Over the past decade or so it's become a bit more diluted with entrances of the Mini and Smart in America while cars in general have grown to accomodate safety and creature comforts. With that came masses of weight thrown about that doesn't bode well on European B-roads -- if that's the correct term -- that require handling finesse and a short wheelbase, a problem that Americans don't often encounter.
You both probably understand this but thought I'd throw it in the air to get my stance in. I see no reason to pick a favorite. For a small car, I'd buy Japanese or Korean, mid-size would probably be American, luxo/full-size would be European. The world has a fetish with brand or idealistic polarities that I never could fully understand. Non-partisanship is a tough mindset to find these days.
[QUOTE=Ferrer;885367]Cars are cheap. And bland. And boring. And it's difficult to find manuals.
I doubt a Twingo RS costs the same as a Genesis Coupe or a Mustang. And trust me on this you could have a lot of fun in it. Don't dismiss it because it's a front wheel drive econobox. Front wheel drive econoboxes can be fun. More fun than BMWs.[/QUOTE]
You didn't answer my question first off - where would you prefer to live fomr a gearhead perspective?
Fine, maybe a Twingo RS isn't as much as a Genesis or Mustang, but would you rather pay for a Mustang here and get so much more or pay for a Twingo there and get so much less? Where's Rasmus when you need him...
We really need a purchasing power parity price comparison.
My point in general is, we miss out on a lot of the smaller/"cheap" European cars and they may be cheaper there but for some more, you can get a lot more fun. Don't forget, we also have cheap BMWs' Mercs, Infinintis (I'd say Audi but you hate them and I'm not so warm on them).
Beyond that, a car like a 911 is a veritable bargain compared to European 911 prices.
In Canada, the average hourly wage is 18 and change an hour, do you know what that would be in Euros for Catalunya for example?
[quote=kitdy;885363]
( . )( . ) tits, gtf in.[/quote]
( . Y . )
[QUOTE=Rockefella;885369]This debate you guys are having will end up being something similar to a Republican and a Democrat trying to convince one another that their party is superior. North America and Europe have entirely different styles of motoring. There's a reason that the Mustang thrives in the states while cars like the Abarth essesse are adored in Europe. Over the past decade or so it's become a bit more diluted with entrances of the Mini and Smart in America while cars in general have grown to accomodate safety and creature comforts. With that came masses of weight thrown about that doesn't bode well on European B-roads -- if that's the correct term -- that require handling finesse and a short wheelbase, a problem that Americans don't often encounter.
You both probably understand this but thought I'd throw it in the air to get my stance in. I see no reason to pick a favorite. For a small car, I'd buy Japanese or Korean, mid-size would probably be American, luxo/full-size would be European. The world has a fetish with brand or idealistic polarities that I never could fully understand. Non-partisanship is a tough mindset to find these days.[/QUOTE]
I like the Mustang it's cheap, simple and fun.
However I'm sure that in the US there are places where there some excellent mountain and country roads. On that basis a Abarth 500 SS could still be great there. I'm sure that also the US has a lot of congested cities, where city cars would come in handy.
[QUOTE=Rockefella;885369]This debate you guys are having will end up being something similar to a Republican and a Democrat trying to convince one another that their party is superior.[/QUOTE] etc...
The thing is, as gas prices rise again after the economic disaster, we wills tart getting those small European cars and they will cost a fraction of what they retail for in Europe. With FIAT coming here, we may well get the 500, and the Fiesta i s already on it's way over so North America is going to become more and more the best of both worlds as time goes forward and global architectures become more prevalent for automakers.
Ferrer, you're still dodging where you'd rather live form a gearhead perspective. Also consider North America's (especially SoCal's) excellent used car market...
[QUOTE=Kitdy;885370]You didn't answer my question first off - where would you prefer to live fomr a gearhead perspective?
Fine, maybe a Twingo RS isn't as much as a Genesis or Mustang, but would you rather pay for a Mustang here and get so much more or pay for a Twingo there and get so much less? Where's Rasmus when you need him...
We really need a purchasing power parity price comparison.
My point in general is, we miss out on a lot of the smaller/"cheap" European cars and they may be cheaper there but for some more, you can get a lot more fun. Don't forget, we also have cheap BMWs' Mercs, Infinintis (I'd say Audi but you hate them and I'm not so warm on them).
Beyond that, a car like a 911 is a veritable bargain compared to European 911 prices.
In Canada, the average hourly wage is 18 and change an hour, do you know what that would be in Euros for Catalunya for example?[/QUOTE]
I prefer Europe, not for the expensive cars, you do have point in that, but for the bread and butter cars.
A Twingo RS isn't less than a Mustang what it is, is different. Rocke makes an excellent point. I'm not dismissing American cars, as I said I like the Mustang and I wish they sold them here. But what if you need a family car? Would you choose an Insignia OPC or an Impala SS?
Yes you get cheaper expensive cars, but that's just a small part of the motoring world, there's much more to be considered.
[QUOTE=Ferrer;885372]
However I'm sure that in the US there are places where there some excellent mountain and country roads. On that basis a Abarth 500 SS could still be great there. I'm sure that also the US has a lot of congested cities, where city cars would come in handy.[/QUOTE]
It's too much of a hassle to drive 50+ miles just to find those roads. Plus if you live in the Midwest United States, forget about it. City driving isn't too much of an issue, the roads accomodate larger cars fairly well. This is especially true if you consider the size of an American taxi in the Crown Victoria. It's not a small car and they're littered about urban areas.
[QUOTE=Kitdy;885374]etc...
The thing is, as gas prices rise again after the economic disaster, we wills tart getting those small European cars and they will cost a fraction of what they retail for in Europe. With FIAT coming here, we may well get the 500, and the Fiesta i s already on it's way over so North America is going to become more and more the best of both worlds as time goes forward and global architectures become more prevalent for automakers.[/QUOTE]
There are still cars that it will not be profitable to market in America, and they will not get sold there, regardless of globalization of the automotive infrastructure. We will also inevitably miss out on some of the engine offerings that don't comply with emissions standards over here (a problem that my fair state and CARB are happily compounding). The innate difference of the markets means that we will never have the same cars here and there and therefore it will always be apples and oranges.
[QUOTE=Rockefella;885377]It's too much of a hassle to drive 50+ miles just to find those roads.[/QUOTE]
That's a good reason for a petrolhead to prefer Europe.
[QUOTE=Ferrer;885376]I prefer Europe, not for the expensive cars, you do have point in that, but for the bread and butter cars.
A Twingo RS isn't less than a Mustang what it is, is different. Rocke makes an excellent point. I'm not dismissing American cars, as I said I like the Mustang and I wish they sold them here. But what if you need a family car? Would you choose an Insignia OPC or an Impala SS?
Yes you get cheaper expensive cars, but that's just a small part of the motoring world, there's much more to be considered.[/QUOTE]
So if I want a bread and butter car (I don't conisder the OPC a bread and butter car), I'd go for something basic, like a Corolla, Accord, Civic, or Camry for family. And if I wanted something nice, I'd go for a 3 series or a Malibu - the Malibu is supposedly great. You're forgetting our bread and butter cars may be boring (Toyota and Honda) but they are excellent for what they are, and if you want some fun, plonk down some more coin and grab an Infiniti or BMW.
[QUOTE=Kitdy;885370]In Canada, the average hourly wage is 18 and change an hour, do you know what that would be in Euros for Catalunya for example?[/QUOTE]
blue collar, about 1.000/1.200 € a month.
I'm not Ferrer, but I would prefer to spend the money on a 500 SS than on a Mustang. It's definitely too big, heavy (not being loaded with gizmos and luxury equipment to justify it) and [I]american[/I], that's to say that it still seems design just for 1/4 mile races despite I know it can handle and pretty well too.
[QUOTE=Ferrer;885381]That's a good reason for a petrolhead to prefer Europe.[/QUOTE]
True, but if you consider North America by region it levels the playing field. I'm sure CMC can vouch for So-Cals pacific roadways. The mountanious areas in the northeast and around Colorado or Utah make for some great driving too. I see your point though.. we are kind of limited in the 'driving roads' category.
[QUOTE=Kitdy;885382]So if I want a bread and butter car (I don't conisder the OPC a bread and butter car), I'd go for something basic, like a Corolla, Accord, Civic, or Camry for family. And if I wanted something nice, I'd go for a 3 series or a Malibu - the Malibu is supposedly great. You're forgetting our bread and butter cars may be boring (Toyota and Honda) but they are excellent for what they are, and if you want some fun, plonk down some more coin and grab an Infiniti or BMW.[/QUOTE]
And we don't need to go for a BMW because we've got Focuses, Leons, 147s...
[QUOTE=Kitdy;885382]So if I want a bread and butter car (I don't conisder the OPC a bread and butter car), I'd go for something basic, like a Corolla, Accord, Civic, or Camry for family. And if I wanted something nice, I'd go for a 3 series or a Malibu - the Malibu is supposedly great. You're forgetting our bread and butter cars may be boring (Toyota and Honda) but they are excellent for what they are, and if you want some fun, plonk down some more coin and grab an Infiniti or BMW.[/QUOTE]
You seem to be forgetting a whole class of cars below those. The Camry, especially in its current bloated form, or Accord should not be considred entry cars. I know you don't like hatches, but you can't just disregard them. They fill the slot below these cars and in Europe can be much more fun than the cars you mentioned. They would also be cheaper than those cars in a [B][I][U]comparable[/U][/I][/B] market. As someone who likes driving why would you buy a more expensive less fun car barring practicality, which I bet would be surprisingly similar to some 5 doors.
See how we get better cars...
[url=http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/20/euro-only-mitsubishi-evolution-fq-330-sst/]Euro-only: Mitsubishi Evolution FQ-330 SST[/url]
iirc the Pagani Zonda was never officially available in North America. Or even the 959. Oh wait, and older Ferraris and Lamborghinis were less powerful.
kthxbai.:D
Just kidding, but it shows you how different the two situations are.
Here a 2,5 tons truck with a 6 liter V8 is the worst kind of polluting vehicle conceivable.
There, a V12 Countach was dangerous even for pedestrians, not only for the air (see horrible bumpers and uber-restrictive catalysts).
[QUOTE=Rockefella;885385]True, but if you consider North America by region it levels the playing field. I'm sure CMC can vouch for So-Cals pacific roadways. The mountanious areas in the northeast and around Colorado or Utah make for some great driving too. I see your point though.. we are kind of limited in the 'driving roads' category.[/QUOTE]
i have driven all over this fine country of ours in a variety of fine automobiles. and i have driven a third of spain's coastline in a fiat punto, and not the grande one.
hands down, the roads in spain we more fun. with comparable scenery. unfortunately it was let down by the car. i had the mini at home, and was wishing for it then.
[QUOTE=LeonOfTheDead;885384]blue collar, about 1.000/1.200 € a month.[/QUOTE]
At 18/hr, the average Canadian would make $2880 a month, for 4 weeks, 40 hours a week, which is 1830 Euros. Then again, that's blue collar versus average, we need both to be average. Minimum wage in Ontario is $8.75, so that'd work out to $1400 or 891 Euros a month.
What's minimum wage in Italy say?
[QUOTE=Kitdy;885405]At 18/hr, the average Canadian would make $2880 a month, for 4 weeks, 40 hours a week, which is 1830 Euros. Then again, that's blue collar versus average, we need both to be average. Minimum wage in Ontario is $8.75, so that'd work out to $1400 or 891 Euros a month.
What's minimum wage in Italy say?[/QUOTE]
Did you include taxes?
[QUOTE=Kitdy;885405]At 18/hr, the average Canadian would make $2880 a month, for 4 weeks, 40 hours a week, which is 1830 Euros. Then again, that's blue collar versus average, we need both to be average. Minimum wage in Ontario is $8.75, so that'd work out to $1400 or 891 Euros a month.
What's minimum wage in Italy say?[/QUOTE]
Here minimum wage is 600€ a month or so.
So a Twingo RS would cost me about 25,5 months. Or if I want to save money, I could have a Panda 100HP in about 18 months.
i have solution:
move to Australia, compromise of both
plethora of euro and jap imports, although lacking in dedicated LHD models, hence muscle cars are harder to get (but available if you don't want the local variety)
roads are a mix of both, for better or for worse
fuel price is in the middle, insurance pretty cheap
can race all year
downside is car tax on a par with europe, and only older cars can be driven in LHD (may be an issue for some), and in some area's modifications are difficult to do legally (although this is mainly of concern to minitruckers...)
[QUOTE=Rockefella;885406]Did you include taxes?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Ferrer;885407]Here minimum wage is 600€ a month or so.
So a Twingo RS would cost me about 25,5 months. Or if I want to save money, I could have a Panda 100HP in about 18 months.[/QUOTE]
A base Mustang starts at 24k, so that'd be 17 months.
A 2.0T Genesis coupe would cost 25k, so that'd be 18 months. Would you rather a Panda, or a Genesis? For 25.5 months here you'd have 37,500 to buy a car.
NA wins. I kid... sorta.
No Clutch...
Come to New Zealand. Get the worst of both Worlds.
i think clutch has it right. Oz gets the good bits of everything, although with the steering wheel on the wrong side.
Name a hot hatch from NA.
[quote=Roentgen;885425]Name a hot hatch from NA.[/quote]
This.
THERE ARE NONE
Told you Cameron. You phail.
[QUOTE=Roentgen;885425]Name a hot hatch from NA.[/QUOTE]
not exactly a hatch, but the Slobalt SS, or the similar HHR. or the SRT-4?
[QUOTE=cmcpokey;885436]not exactly a hatch, but the Slobalt SS, or the similar HHR. or the SRT-4?[/QUOTE]
i was about to say, the US simply substituted small sedans/coupes for the hatchback body style, in the style of the lancer. i don't think there's that much difference between them.
does the 1 series sell as a hatch or sedan or both, in the US?
2 door sedan and cabriolet. you may be able to get the hatch, but i havent seen one.
Slo SS and SRT-4 aren't hatches, and your argument about the 1-series is wrong.
[quote=Roentgen;885425]Name a hot hatch [B]from[/B] NA.[/quote]
Keyword.
Why does it need to be a hatch.
The US market have voted, time & time again, against small hatchbacks (the Prius being a pious exception).
Given the opportunity, they will buy the sedan verson.
Different market conditions etc.
I'm not arguing for or the 1 series, i'm asking if it's on sale as a hatch/how popular it is as a hatch as an indication of how well a premium hatchback will sell in America.