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Thread: Diesel cars in America

  1. #301
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    I like carbys, but...if you're gonna go with EFI, might as well go DI, as it's the one that works the best.
    An it harm none, do as ye will

    Approximately 79% of statistics are made up.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    Actually, Since R10, the fuel pressure in not just the racing diesel, but modern TDI are pushing well over 1500 bars(thats 22,000 psi). Racing diesel in Peugeot and Audi are probably close to 2500 - 3000 bars...
    That just shows how outdated my text book is, even though its only a year old publication...... Given, it deals more with industrial stuff.
    "Don't think your time on bad things
    Just float your little mind around"
    Jimi Hendrix

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    ....or drive a smoke spewing brodozer....
    Never heard that term before, it's a good'un though.
    Life's too short to drive bad cars.

  4. #304
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    That's Dub'ya's limousine, y'all.
    An it harm none, do as ye will

    Approximately 79% of statistics are made up.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    Frankly its your freedom, but your freedom is basing on not infringing mine....
    And here is the crux of the environmental argument. Someone else's "freedom," is actually negatively impacting all other members of the human race. A Northern North American is producing huge amounts of garbage and emissions, and they pay for it, but those that pay for it most are those who are already worse off.

    Evidence points to anthropological climate change being real. The majority of evidence points to this change being potentially catastrophic. I would rather operate with the precautionary principle in hand and aim to reduce potentially catastrophic damage. If the potential risk is widespread death and destruction, and the relative cost to stop this is high (but still low compared to well, widespread death and destruction) then I'd rather err on the side of caution then let myself in older life and subsequent generations of humans and non-human beings on this planet suffer for our grandiose.

    jcb, see what The Economist has to say on climate change. They fully embrace the fact that anthropological climate change and global warming is real and accept that it will likely be absolutely devastating. They had a very coolly discussed podcast about the widespread ramifications of this issue where they attempted to come up with some solutions.

    I say: build approximately 29837420938472908347238 nuclear fission reactors. Canada and Australia has the world covered for uranium.

    EDIT: Fund these reactors, and use the reactors to create desalination plans, by seizing the assets of, and repatriating users of tax havens.
    Last edited by Kitdy; 05-01-2013 at 10:05 PM.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcp123 View Post
    Torque. And fuel economy.

    Diesel should be a no brainer.

    Except the greenies decided to get into the fray and requre diesels to meet more stringent emissions standards, thereby REDUCING their economy and introducing more complication under the hood.

    *sigh* government.
    Fuel economy only.

    The typical European diesel engine struggles to get past 200ft-lb. Surely, the typical American 7.8-litre V8 has more torque.

    You also get turbo lag, worse NVH characteristics and a heavier nose (which upsets weight distribution). And on the subjective camp, nowhere near as pleasant as petrol engine.

    Diesels only make sense in Europe for two reasons: One our fuel prices have shot through the roof (I spend 300€ a month in petrol and my car isn't especially thirsty) and two diesel is cheaper than petrol.

    When I went to Switzerland I noticed than most cars had petrol engines, and I wondered why. It was only when I stopped at a fuel station that I learnt that diesel is actually more expensive than 98RON petrol.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  7. #307
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    I'm sure you tabulated it somewhere on here, but do you remember the figures you had to consider when getting the BMW? Money saved, time 'til purchase price vs. gasoline model was compensated for by fuel savings, and stuff like that.
    "Kimi, can you improve on your [race] finish?"
    "No. My Finnish is fine; I am from Finland. Do you have any water?"

  8. #308
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    Every time I read the title of this thread, I sing it to the tune of 'We're the Kids in America' in my head.
    Life's too short to drive bad cars.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by f6fhellcat13 View Post
    I'm sure you tabulated it somewhere on here, but do you remember the figures you had to consider when getting the BMW? Money saved, time 'til purchase price vs. gasoline model was compensated for by fuel savings, and stuff like that.
    It is indeed here, somewhere.

    IIRC we compared both a Clio and a 3 Series and the result was that you had to do well over 100.000km in both for the diesel to make actual financial sense.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimento View Post
    Never heard that term before, it's a good'un though.
    Picked up on some other forum I think, but I thought its oddly fitting....
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
    Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
    www.fsae.utoronto.ca

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Fuel economy only.
    I was skeptical so, I looked into this for USDM cars/trucks and found:
    Cummins 6.7l 24-Valve I6 Turbodiesel: 320hp, 650lbft (880Nm)
    Powerstroke 6.7l 32-Valve V8 Turbodiesel: 390hp, 735lbft (1,000Nm)
    Duramax 6.6l LML 32-Valve V8 Turbodiesel: 400hp, 765lbft (1,040Nm)

    That is a lot of torque. Their gasoline engines, of comparable displacement make:
    392cid HEMI 6.7l 16-Valve V8: 470hp, 470lbft (640Nm)
    Triton 6.8l 30-Valve V10: 360hp, 460lbft (620Nm)
    [Coyote/Modular Shelby Cobra 5.8L 32-Valve V8 Supercharged: 660hp, 620lbft (850Nm)]
    Vortec 6200 6.2l 16-Valve V8: 400hp, 415lbft (565Nm)
    [LS7 7.0l 16-Valve V8: 505hp, 470lbft (640 Nm)]
    [Vortec 8100 8.1l 16-Valve V8: 400hp, 690lbft (940Nm) (I am slightly suspicious of this)]

    So the numbers aren't quite as far off as I might have thought; the gasoline engines make about 2/3 as much torque as the diesels. So, if they rev 1.5 times as much as the diesels they should make the same power, which would only mean revving to under 5,000rpm. I tried to use truck engines only with HiPo engines in brackets.

    Obviously this is not an apples-to-apples comparison as all the diesels are forcibly inducted and only the Shelby gas engine is. So I looked to the modern range of smaller displacement gas turboes:

    Powerstroke 3.2l 20-Valve I5 Turbodiesel: 250hp, 400lbft (540Nm)
    EcoBoost 3.5l 24-Valve V6 Turbo: 365hp, 420lbft (570Nm)

    It seems you may have a point.
    "Kimi, can you improve on your [race] finish?"
    "No. My Finnish is fine; I am from Finland. Do you have any water?"

  12. #312
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    Diesel
    2.0 TDI VW: 140bhp, 236 lb-ft
    2.0 GTD VW(MK7): 180bhp, 280lb-ft

    Gas:
    2.0T (Mk6): 200 bhp, 207lb-ft
    2.0T (MK7): 227bhp, 258lb-ft
    2.0T Golf R: 252bhp, 243lb-ft
    2.0T Focus ST: 252bhp, 270lb-ft
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
    Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
    www.fsae.utoronto.ca

  13. #313
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    So it seems Ferrer has a point. If the diesels and Ottos are at about parity in terms of torque at the brake, the higher-gearing necessitated by a diesel's more-limited rev range would mean that the gas cars would appear to have greater torque at the wheels?
    "Kimi, can you improve on your [race] finish?"
    "No. My Finnish is fine; I am from Finland. Do you have any water?"

  14. #314
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    Probably. Even the paltry MK6 GTI is still about 1.5 sec faster to 60 than MK6 GTD. The cars are within 100lb IIRC weight to each other...Driving my friend's Golf TDI, the "shove" you feel in the seat is about the same on WOT, but GTI just pulls for longer, while the TDI you are shifting all the time...

    Now he gets over 40MPG fairly easily, I barely gets 30 on highway and about 25 in mixed cycle...
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
    Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
    www.fsae.utoronto.ca

  15. #315
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    I have another example.

    Mercedes-Benz CLA220 CDI: 170bhp, 350Nm (258ft-lb, isn't it?)
    Mercedes-Benz CLA250 CGI: 211bhp, 350Nm (258ft-lb, isn't it?)

    The petrol engined car not only is faster on paper, but subjectively pulls much harder than the diesel, and it is 200cc smaller.

    Also, on a related note both the diesel and the petrol share the same gearbox ratios, with a 7th of 58,2km/h (36.1mph) @ 1000rpm.

    Really the only point were diesel has an advantage over petrol is in fuel consuption.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

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