Which is faster?

[gtface]

Out of curiosity i did a search on autotrader and found that the '04 zo6 would cost a litlle less.

[bmwpower]

So many people here keep trying to dish out bullshit to me. You cant dish it to me if you cant take it back. Some people just need to shut up if they dont know the answer to my question. All I asked was simple question. There is no politics to my question.

wow ur some angry bastard..did u miss the part about "we're all doing our best" i mean friggen drive them urself if ur going to get all PMS about it..some of us are trying to help and also being light spirited about it. I mean ur not dying are you?? sheesh

[drakkie]

Way to be a biased idiot.

now you tell me :
- how many US built cars have a live axle ?
- how many manufacturers have commonrail technology in their engines ?
- how mny manufacturers have direct fuel injection ?
- which standard american car beats the euro hp/liter thingy..
- which cars are the best handling cars ?

I'm not biased. it is just a fact that US cars in general are using outdated technology...Im sure there are excptions on that. Stats prove me right The feel of the cars is different for everyone and cannot be measured though,so no debating on that.

[Slicks]

now you tell me :
- how many US built cars have a live axle ?

Now adays very few. The only one I can think of is the Mustang, and its built like that for a reason, its superior for drag racing.

- how many manufacturers have commonrail technology in their engines ?

What is commonrail?

- how mny manufacturers have direct fuel injection ?

GM, Ford, Chrysler.

- which standard american car beats the euro hp/liter thingy..

You have got to be kidding me...
HP/L is the most irrelevant stat for performance, try hp to weight, or better yet torque curve.

- which cars are the best handling cars ?

Define "best handling."
To say we dont have cars that can handle would be nothing short of moronic.
All of our performance cars handle well nowadays. Dont expect our "everyday" cars to handle well, its pointless to us.

I'm not biased. it is just a fact that US cars in general are using outdated technology...Im sure there are excptions on that. Stats prove me right The feel of the cars is different for everyone and cannot be measured though,so no debating on that.

Whats outdated? SUPERIOR technology is nothing outdated, solid axles are PURPOSELY used for the cars for drag racing. OHV engines are lighter, smaller, and more compact than OHC engines (wanna compare the size of the LSx lineup to the Ford 4.6? The 4.6 absolutly dwarfs the 7.0L LS7)
The Corvettes transversly mounted leaf springs are lighter than coils, last longer, and provide more space in the trunk and engine bay. Corvette test cars have always tried coils, and always come up short, thats why they have always used transverse leafs.

[henk4]

The Corvettes transversly mounted leaf springs are lighter than coils, last longer, and provide more space in the trunk and engine bay. Corvette test cars have always tried coils, and always come up short, thats why they have always used transverse leafs.

but Corvette racing cars use coils, because they can be better adjusted....
(and commonrail is a diesel thingy, untreade territory overthere, but I think Ford has, certainly in their new 3.6 litre V8 for the RangeRover )

[furious_fiero]

wow ur some angry bastard..did u miss the part about "we're all doing our best" i mean friggen drive them urself if ur going to get all PMS about it..some of us are trying to help and also being light spirited about it. I mean ur not dying are you?? sheesh

ok buddy, why dont you read this whole thread...determine that I am right...that about the 3-4 people who posted after my initial post in this thread, are the ones that need a chill pill.

[2ndclasscitizen]

now you tell me :
- how many US built cars have a live axle ?

A live axle is THE best way to carry a heavy load, i.e most Americans

- how many manufacturers have commonrail technology in their engines ?

The US haven't really embraced diesels. But if the the Jag 2.7 V6 does, Ford does.

- how mny manufacturers have direct fuel injection ?

How many Euro compaines do? VAG is all I can think of.

- which standard american car beats the euro hp/liter thingy..

As Slick said, power-to-weight is much more useful, and compare the torque/litre of euros to a big ol' V8

- which cars are the best handling cars ?

Mosler, Saleen, Factory Five GTM, I imagine there's probably quite a few more

I'm not biased. it is just a fact that US cars in general are using outdated technology...

The thing is, outdated tech = proven tech, and with the USA's strict comsumer protection laws in the automotive industry this is important for the car compaines

[Matra et Alpine]

How many Euro compaines do? VAG is all I can think of.

Ford, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia), Opel, Peugeot, Citroen, Volvo, M-B, BMW, Saab ph and teh VAG group of cars.
( OK, fair to call "cheating " as the PSA group engine plants provide them to their competitiors ie Ford )

Mosler, Saleen, Factory Five GTM, I imagine there's probably quite a few more

Mosler ..... built at Breckland Technology Ltd. in East Dereham, England.
Saleen ... RML design and first production before moving to Ford US
F5 GTM -- Ultima derived(AFAIK). [This is one I'd like confirmed/denied, it was said in a kit car group but I've not found anythign to validate it]

The thing is, outdated tech = proven tech, and with the USA's strict comsumer protection laws in the automotive industry this is important for the car compaines

That's a point I'd not thought of with the strong US litigation.
Yeah, if a Corvette was produced on springs and then someone crashed thre WOULD be an ambulance chasing lawyer saying it was because Chev changed from leaf to spring !!!!!
DAMN, I'm glad it's still engineering decisions on this side of the pond
I think the other thing about "proven tech" is low production cost and low financial risk.
It's easier and cheaper to stay with the same underpinnings and jstu change the body panels around for a "new" car.
I guess that's why in the past the BIG three tend to take a European design 3-5 years after its' success over here. It's then proven, production is ramped up and a plant is getting rid of the line.

[henk4]

I guess that's why in the past the BIG three tend to take a European design 3-5 years after its' success over here. It's then proven, production is ramped up and a plant is getting rid of the line.

Like the Chrysler 300 which is based on the now previous-previous E-Class

[d-quik]

ok buddy, why dont you read this whole thread...determine that I am right...that about the 3-4 people who posted after my initial post in this thread, are the ones that need a chill pill.

Actually, i must agree with the chill pill man. Your incapacity to formulate sensible questions, inability to acknowledge statstics without skeptical and paranoid overquestioning, lack of reason for outburst on bmwpower, and your telling of others what to do as if they would do exactly as you say as if you were some superior person is nothing short of frustrating.

[Slicks]

Mosler ..... built at Breckland Technology Ltd. in East Dereham, England.
Saleen ... RML design and first production before moving to Ford US
F5 GTM -- Ultima derived(AFAIK). [This is one I'd like confirmed/denied, it was said in a kit car group but I've not found anythign to validate it]

Mosler is a American company using corvette parts, stop making everything sound like they are british.

That's a point I'd not thought of with the strong US litigation.
Yeah, if a Corvette was produced on springs and then someone crashed thre WOULD be an ambulance chasing lawyer saying it was because Chev changed from leaf to spring !!!!!
DAMN, I'm glad it's still engineering decisions on this side of the pond
I think the other thing about "proven tech" is low production cost and low financial risk.

Now your just being an idiot.

[Matra et Alpine]

Mosler is a American company using corvette parts, stop making everything sound like they are british.

erm you want to learn a little about Mosler before you post and PROVE your continued blind patriotic BS abotu American cars

DO THE RESEARCH and then you can come back and yoru aplogy will be accepted. (1)

You shoudl know better by now Slicks. I dont' post thngs that arent' backed up, factual and accurate

Now your just being an idiot.

Acutally I was acceptign that 2ndcc's post had some validity I'd never considerd may be an option explainging some of the choices of the big three.

You are the only one proving to be an idiot ( return to (1) )

[zeta]

That's a point I'd not thought of with the strong US litigation.
Yeah, if a Corvette was produced on springs and then someone crashed thre WOULD be an ambulance chasing lawyer saying it was because Chev changed from leaf to spring !!!!!
DAMN, I'm glad it's still engineering decisions on this side of the pond
I think the other thing about "proven tech" is low production cost and low financial risk.
It's easier and cheaper to stay with the same underpinnings and jstu change the body panels around for a "new" car.
I guess that's why in the past the BIG three tend to take a European design 3-5 years after its' success over here. It's then proven, production is ramped up and a plant is getting rid of the line.

They use to say the same thing about the 'dinosaur' pushrod engine it uses.

It is the only NA car that uses a rear leaf spring suspension setup. I highly doubt the reason they still use it is to cut cost, from using the everyday, highly accessable macphareson strut (coil over spring) setup, from its parts bin or somewhere. EVO magazine credited it for being efficently normal, and countered TG's exaggeration of it making the ride too harsh over bumps.

And what about the worlds 'heads ups dispaly' for a car, found first in the vette.- The F-16 inspired, hologram reflecting of the bottom driverside windshield that displays a numerical speedometer, a tach, the real time G force, and more driver info.
And the Deplhi (GM parts co.) made magniride struts, gas filled struts w/ magnetic particles that dampens the ride with a by variably changing the viscosity in the strut according to the road, and does't it in one millisecond.This system works well enough to make Ferrari put it into the new 599GTB- "Manfredi says MagneRide is simple, lighter and faster than active systems that adjust shock valving. It has no mechanical parts, and response time is one millisecond."- AutoWeek on the ferrari 599gtb

So there

[culver]

If we are going to talk about people going around the world before designing cars we have to add the Chevrolet brothers (Switzerland IIRC) and the Duisenberg brothers. Of course we (or Mazda NA) blessed the world with the origins of the Miata/MX-5 and the man who gave us BMW's current styling trend (sorry).
The US has contributed a lot to automotive science. So has Europe. So has Japan.

Now I will agree that US cars are in general not as leading edge as what is sold in Europe. However, that applies to both Domestic brands and imports. There are some good reasons for this. Often those technologies that seem so cool in Europe aren't cost effective in the US.
As a very generic example lets look at turbos vs displacement. Lets say Car Company has a 2L motor in a sedan. They want to make a more powerful version of that sedan. Well in the US they could just increase displacement to say 2.4L. A change to some gears and the car returns the same highway mileage as the 2L version. I will likely see a drop in city mileage as the consumer uses that extra power. It cost the car company virtually nothing to do this but the consumer benefits.
Now lets assume I have a tax system that dings displacement. Well a turbo might be a good way to add power. When done right I will have great midrange torque for highway passing power. In fact I can even use a longer final drive so I get the same highway mileage as before. I achieved about the same result as the "low tech, more displacement" example but I added the expense of a turbo.
Certainly this logic applies to all brands sold in the US, not just domestics. The example first is effectively what BMW did with the 525 and 530 offered for sale in the US just a few years back. The later is what Volvo did with the 850 offered for sale in the 90s. As the US doesn't have a displacement based tax system it's often more cost effective to go for this lower cost solution. Honda has proven they can get 240hp out of a 2L motor yet they sell the Accord with a choice of 2.4L I4 or 3L V6 because displacement has some perks.

Also consider the generally lower cost and greater competition in the US market. When it comes to value it's hard to beat the offerings sold in the US. Again, I'm not talking about just US brands but imports too. For the most part US consumers are content getting more size, cup holders, etc for the dollar rather than things like direct injection and turbos. Not that we don't want some of that but we don't want to pay for it.
My understanding is cars in Europe on average are more expensive than in the states. I can understand that if I'm paying $30K vs $20K I want a nicer something even if the price difference is mostly taxes. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in the average life of a car in Europe vs the US. I think the average in the US is 7.5 years.

These sorts of topics come up frequently. I think the differences in the US vs European markets are often ignored. They are clearly different as is illustrated by the differences between what Ford, Toyota, Honda etc sell here vs there. Even if we say that Ford and GM are handicapped by financial issues we have to say Toyota is selling what the market wants and it clearly wants something different than what Toyota sells in Europe or Japan.

One last point, beyond marketing, hp/L is pointless in the US market. Even Honda acknowledged this when they changed the S2000 from 2L to 2.2L. No increase in Hp but a boost in torque.