2009 Audi R8 V10 Spy shot

[2ndclasscitizen]

The Lambo V10 is actually a 90º V10, has an unitary capacity that's exactly the same as Audi's old 3-litre V6. The leads me to believe that the engine is not that Lambo.

Whoopity do, it also has exactly the same unitary capacity of every 3ltr V6.

In fact, and if I'm not mistaken, Lamborghini had already developped a V10 which had 400bhp in the fully funtional Cala prototype (which is arguably a lot better looking than the Gallardo)

I haven't heard of that, but that would be an argument in favour of the Gallardo V10 being a Lambo design rather than a Audi one.

Furthermore Audi also had to re-engineer the old 4.2-litre V8 in order to fit into the smaller A4 engine bay, so I don't think that the modificaction of the V10 makes it more or less of an Audi.

How is Audi having to re-engineer one of their own engines to fit one of their cars the same as heavily re-designing another (albeit subsidiary) company's engine to be merely able to manufacture it in their engine plant? That makes the V10 an Audi engine how?

[Wouter Melissen]

The V10 in the S6 has the exact same bore and stroke as the V8 in the S4 ...

[2ndclasscitizen]

The V10 in the S6 has the exact same bore and stroke as the V8 in the S4 ...

And? Audi's engine plant's are set-up for a common bore size. Audi added Direct Injection, upped the compression ratio and modified the timing and tuning for the S6 and S8. If they wanted to show off their engine tech as Audi are prone to do then they certainly would have at least fitted FSI to the V10 and shown it off when they released the Gallardo. I think it's more a case of Audi returning on their investment in Lamborghini.

[Wouter Melissen]

And?

The Audi V8 formed the basis for the Audi/Lamborghini V10.

[Ferrer]

Whoopity do, it also has exactly the same unitary capacity of every 3ltr V6.

Yes I've checked and the don't share the bore and stroke, which I thought they did. But it does share the stroke with the 4.2-litre V8. Which as Wouter says point at a relation between the V8 and the V10. And the also share the V angle, which isn't perfect for a V10 (I think one of the oprtions for a V10 is 72º).

I haven't heard of that, but that would be an argument in favour of the Gallardo V10 being a Lambo design rather than a Audi one.

Well the original Lamborghini 3961cc V10 was first designed in the late 80's, I doubt Audi has actually anything to do with it. It'd still be a decade until Audi would gain control of Lamborghini.

How is Audi having to re-engineer one of their own engines to fit one of their cars the same as heavily re-designing another (albeit subsidiary) company's engine to be merely able to manufacture it in their engine plant? That makes the V10 an Audi engine how?

It just isn't another company's engine just because it's manufactured in Italy. It's an Audi engine designed by Audi's prinicples. That can't a Lamborghini engine. That's my point of view.

[Coventrysucks]

It just isn't another company's engine just because it's manufactured in Italy. It's an Audi engine designed by Audi's prinicples. That can't a Lamborghini engine. That's my point of view.

A pretty depressing point of view to hold these days, as aside from Ferrari and Porsche, (who no doubt share other components) no "supercar" manufacturer makes their "own" engines, as you would have it.

I think you are clinging to some golden era long since past that didn't actually happen.

Where sports cars were designed as unique entities, with no components "off the shelf" (good luck finding one) to corrupt their soul, they were usually a bit rubbish; the old 911s used to kill everybody who drove one, the Miura would take off at high speed, and anything British would resolutely fail to work.

The whole, as they say, is greater than the sum of its parts.

Most of the road tests I have seen of the Gallardo seem to indicate that it has plenty of "soul" and "character", and it is also fast and relatively reliable into the bargain.

I would rather see a Lamborghini with VAG investment allowing the Lamborghini engineers to produce the best cars that they can, rather than an independent company falling further and further behind the likes of Porsche and Ferrari vainly hoping that new headlights on a Diablo will make customers forget the cramped interior, shoddy build quality, under-developed handling and shockingly bad reliability.

And so what if Audi wants to make money by using the experience gained from Lamborghini's development programmes to build other cars; Audi is a business that needs profits, not a charity set up to fund failing Italian sportscar manufacturers.

[Ingolstadt]

Agreed on every word Coventry.

Ferrer - Cala is ugly and holds no direction for Lambo if they really took the design.

[Ferrer]

A pretty depressing point of view to hold these days, as aside from Ferrari and Porsche, (who no doubt share other components) no "supercar" manufacturer makes their "own" engines, as you would have it.

I think you are clinging to some golden era long since past that didn't actually happen.

Where sports cars were designed as unique entities, with no components "off the shelf" (good luck finding one) to corrupt their soul, they were usually a bit rubbish; the old 911s used to kill everybody who drove one, the Miura would take off at high speed, and anything British would resolutely fail to work.

The whole, as they say, is greater than the sum of its parts.

Most of the road tests I have seen of the Gallardo seem to indicate that it has plenty of "soul" and "character", and it is also fast and relatively reliable into the bargain.

I would rather see a Lamborghini with VAG investment allowing the Lamborghini engineers to produce the best cars that they can, rather than an independent company falling further and further behind the likes of Porsche and Ferrari vainly hoping that new headlights on a Diablo will make customers forget the cramped interior, shoddy build quality, under-developed handling and shockingly bad reliability.

And so what if Audi wants to make money by using the experience gained from Lamborghini's development programmes to build other cars; Audi is a business that needs profits, not a charity set up to fund failing Italian sportscar manufacturers.

I understand that, I know that Audi is in the car bussiness to make money. But actually there are ways and ways of managing your ultra premium brands. And I'm afraid from the enthusiast point of view the Volkswagen way has to be one of the worst ever. It's not only Lamborghini, but Bentley too while we are at it.

I do ackonwledge that in these days of globalisation component sharing is vital if car companies want to suceed. But there's component sharing and component sharing. The kind of component sharing that Volkswagen uses in their cars is just so clear and they are unashamed of it, that it almost beggers belief. Whereas other luxury brands also make component sharing, but it's more subtle altough equally effective. And we've got examples of it.

There's Aston Martin. Yes, their V12 is two Ford V6s joined together and the V8 Vantage has a Jaguar engine, plus the interior has Ford parts. But none of the engines is used by anybody else and they are clearly differentiated from their origins. Plus the Aston Martin interiors are properly great and different from any other Ford product.

There's Rolls-Royce. The V12 is derived from BMW's N73 engine, but it's a version specifically designed for Rolls-Royce which is different from the original V12. And the Phantom is great, it doesn't feel or look like a posh BMW at all.

And finally there's Maserati. Again the V8 might be derived from a Ferrari unit, but it has totally different parameters and while the sat-nav system might be shared with Peugeot I don't think Maseratis feel at all like Fiats, or Ferraris for that matter since they are completely different inside and out.

Whereas the Continental is just a Phateon with a couple of turbos strapped on it and the Gallardo leaves me completely cold. Yes, car manufacturers are there to make money, but despite that I want to feel the passion and that someone really cared about the car when designing it. I'm sorry but I just can't feel that in a Gallardo. The Cala however was much more like it. Just compare the pics.

[Coventrysucks]

And finally there's Maserati. Again the V8 might be derived from a Ferrari unit, but it has totally different parameters

You concede that Jaguar/Aston Martin, BMW/Rolls Royce & Ferrari/Maserati sharing engines is "acceptable", where certain details are changed, but an Audi 5.2-litre V10 with FSI tuned for torque is not "different" enough from a Lamborghini 5.0-litre V10 tuned for top-end power?

The Jag/Aston V8s are closer to being identical than the Audi/Lambo V10, even the W12s used by Bentley/VW.

At least Audi/Lamborghini/Bentley are honest about the components that are shared, as opposed to everyone else pretending that it doesn't happen.

I agree that the current "Continental" crop of Bentleys are not typical of what the marque represents, but they are a "stop gap" measure - cheap to develop, cheap to sell and a sales success, meaning more money for the next generation, necessitating fewer shared components.

Despite the common elements with the Phaeton, the rest of the car was designed by Bentley designers, and engineered by Bentley engineers and given the go-ahead by Bentley management - it is the car Bentley wanted to make; don't try and blame Audi for the decisions made in Crewe.

Finally - the Cala is a nice looking car, but incredibly dated. The Gallardo's styling has a level of refinement and maturity that still looks fresh today. Lamborghini's interiors are dull, but that is the fault of Lamborghini's interior designers, not Audi.

[Ferrer]

You concede that Jaguar/Aston Martin, BMW/Rolls Royce & Ferrari/Maserati sharing engines is "acceptable", where certain details are changed, but an Audi 5.2-litre V10 with FSI tuned for torque is not "different" enough from a Lamborghini 5.0-litre V10 tuned for top-end power?

The Jag/Aston V8s are closer to being identical than the Audi/Lambo V10, even the W12s used by Bentley/VW.

At least Audi/Lamborghini/Bentley are honest about the components that are shared, as opposed to everyone else pretending that it doesn't happen.

I agree that the current "Continental" crop of Bentleys are not typical of what the marque represents, but they are a "stop gap" measure - cheap to develop, cheap to sell and a sales success, meaning more money for the next generation, necessitating fewer shared components.

Despite the common elements with the Phaeton, the rest of the car was designed by Bentley designers, and engineered by Bentley engineers and given the go-ahead by Bentley management - it is the car Bentley wanted to make; don't try and blame Audi for the decisions made in Crewe.

Well the thing is the R8 V10 will most probably have the 5-litre 500bhp V10, since I don't think there's enough of a difference between the 450bhp V10 and the 420bhp V8 to justify the bigger engine. That means that the V10 will not be unique to Lamborghini either. I'm basing my arguments on this point. If that for some reason isn't the case, I'll admit that my arguments would be slitghly flawed.

About the Continental, yes the decision might have been taken at Crewe but let's be brutally honest I doubt they either a) had much of chance in saying no or b) Crewe has become nothing more than a subsidiary of Wolfsburg. Being run by a chap called Franz Josef Paefgen doesn't help either.

And finally coming back to the Gallardo, yes if the engineering was really unique(ish) to Lamborghini perhaprs I'd like it more (almost certainly), but despite that it still would be a car that'd leave me unemotioned. I think that the exterior or the interior aren't Lamboghini enough. And before you mention the Superleggera, no a rear wing and Superleggera scrabbled down the doors is no where near enough.

I'm not saying it's a bad car at all, I'm just saying that it suffers from the VAG syndrome again, from my point of view. There might be people who like it and that's perfectly fine by me. I just can't.

[Ferrer]

Finally - the Cala is a nice looking car, but incredibly dated. The Gallardo's styling has a level of refinement and maturity that still looks fresh today. Lamborghini's interiors are dull, but that is the fault of Lamborghini's interior designers, not Audi.

The Cala might look a bit dated, remember it's almost a 13 year old car, but it looks incredibly more exciting than the Gallardo, which in my opinion it just looks too clinical and efficient. Come on this is a Lamborghini not a Volkswagen, we want drama and excitement. Something that is outrageous, that it looks like a Lambroghini should. Italian cars are something very especial, and if you try to make them "mainstream" you may lose the focus too, which is a bit what Alfa Romeo is suffering with the 159/Brera/Spider as well.

Regarding the interiors, again it's the same story as with the exterior. the designer of the Gallardo was a chap Luc Donckerwolke, which isn't a Lamborghini designer at all, more a bloke put there by Volkswagen. His job since 2005 is Seat Design Director. And that's the problem really, the reliability is great but they don't seem to grasp Lamborghini at all.

[Coventrysucks]

The Cala might look a bit dated, remember it's almost a 13 year old car, but it looks incredibly more exciting than the Gallardo

The Gallardo wasn't designed the day it was launched, so the design is 8-9 years old too.

the designer of the Gallardo was a chap Luc Donckerwolke, which isn't a Lamborghini designer at all, more a bloke put there by Volkswagen.

No Lamborghini sports cars or concepts, aside from the Gallardo and Murcielago, have been designed by "Lamborghini designers", but third party Carrozzerias instead.

Why are groups of people independent of the company more worthy of designing the cars than a group of people employed by Lamborghini, or more likely to learn and understand what the Lamborghini brand means?

Judging by the concepts from the big Italian styling firms in the last 5 or so years, I wouldn't put much faith in their abilities to come up with anything better than that which Lamborghini themselves have created.

His job since 2005 is Seat Design Director. And that's the problem really, the reliability is great but they don't seem to grasp Lamborghini at all.

That is entirely irrelevant - find a design chief who hasn't worked elsewhere.

Ian Callum started out designing pin-stripes for Ford Escorts and Ford Transit door mirrors, does that mean he is not qualified to be Jaguar's design director?

[Ferrer]

No Lamborghini sports cars or concepts, aside from the Gallardo and Murcielago, have been designed by "Lamborghini designers", but third party Carrozzerias instead.

Why are groups of people independent of the company more worthy of designing the cars than a group of people employed by Lamborghini, or more likely to learn and understand what the Lamborghini brand means?

Judging by the concepts from the big Italian styling firms in the last 5 or so years, I wouldn't put much faith in their abilities to come up with anything better than that which Lamborghini themselves have created.

I wouldn't be so sure, the Maserati Birdcage looks brilliant and the latest Zagatos aren't bad either, the Brera concept car was greta too. Perhaps that's the point, perhaps Lamborghini should outsource the styling of their cars.

That is entirely irrelevant - find a design chief who hasn't worked elsewhere.

Ian Callum started out designing pin-stripes for Ford Escorts and Ford Transit door mirrors, does that mean he is not qualified to be Jaguar's design director?

I didn't mention it as a disapproval of his ability, people can work where they can/want and it certainly it's none of my bussiness, I just mentioned it because it was suspicious of being nothing more than Volkswagen employee and therefore probably working to their requirements and principles.

Then again maybe he doesn't know better, or simply I can't connect with his design emotionally. I will agree that the Cala looks a bit dated, that wing looks so 80's/90's, and perhaps we could even call it vulgar. But aren't Lamborghini supposed to be bit vulgar anyway? I mean scisor doors, scoops, wild colors. If anything Lamborghini represents the excess, the drama. Whereas a Ferrari looked tame a Lamborghini was shouty.

Yes the did restrained GT's in the 60's and 70's, but since the Miura that image disappeared and Lamborghinis became sinonimous with bedroom poster cars, the ultimate pinup supercars. Who cares what it's like drive when it looks like that. Definitely in a Lamborghini form was above function. The Gallardo is quite the opposite (and in a way so's the Murcielago) brilliant technically, but very restrained. Is Lamborghini trying to be Ferrari?

[Cyco]

Being run by a chap called Franz Josef Paefgen doesn't help either.

Having met Herr Paefgen, and the Conti GT's designer both are very enthusiastic about the Bentley brand identity and keeping it separate to VW's.

Neither are crazy enough to believe that the brand can stand on its own feet, however.

[Coventrysucks]

I wouldn't be so sure, the Maserati Birdcage looks brilliant and the latest Zagatos aren't bad either, the Brera concept car was greta too.

Then there are such examples of "brand sensitivity" as the Italdesign Twenty-Twenty, Bertone Jet 2 and the absolute dross bearing the names "Ferrari" & "Pininfarina" from the last 5 years.

I just mentioned it because it was suspicious of being nothing more than Volkswagen employee and therefore probably working to their requirements and principles.

You make it sound as if VAG is some sort of "Hank Scorpio-esque" evil corporation.

"On today's schedule, ve vill be discussing ze destruction of ze Lamorghini brand, our new Evil-Moonbase, und ze cleaning out of ze Deadly Pirhana tank..."

Who cares what it's like drive when it looks like that.

You'd really rather Lamborghini made cars that were bad to drive but looked like a 13 year-old's wet dream?

That would certainly keep 13 year-olds happy, but the problem with that market is that they only buy posters, not £150,000 supercars - that is left to their fathers, who probably don't want to spend £150,000 on a supercar that drives like shit.