My plan executed with some C4

[henk4]

Apparently there are quite a few efi engines wherein the factory 'mapping' does not extend to beneath-idle speed, or very little below it, and these engines simply shut down and can thus be quite easy to stall as a result if a driver causes the revs to dip below the idle setting

my revs hardly dip at all....

[jediali]

you could say a rotary is an oil burner

or hemel hempstead

[Clivey]

Not wishing to be picky but (if I've grasped your written intention correctly) isn't clutch shudder principally related to excessive wear and/or previous abuse or maybe an oil leak, with vehicle weight being a distant culprit overall?

I actually asked my dealer to check this last week when it went for it's first service - when I went to pick the car-up I asked whether they'd "found" anything and a mechanic came out to the car with me and after "testing" it in the carpark, he simply replied with the typical "they all do that, Sir". There is apparently nothing wrong with the car.

I believe them as the clutch is always consistent and this only happens when you're just using the clutch to maneuver the car (without using the accelerator) slowly. The car doesn’t suffer from any other clutch “faults” etc.

It’s just that the smaller, lighter Mini, with a different gearbox, doesn’t do this. So either it’s that the gearbox/clutch combo in the C4 isn’t as good as it should be or it’s the weight of the car that’s to blame.

It's worth noting though that the Ford Focus with the same engine/gearbox combo is even worse - another pointer to weight being the cause (The Focus is about 90Kg heavier – that’s like having passenger of a similar weight to be on board).

[Clivey]

cant say I disagree in part. I feel these cars feel under pressure to optimise their car to have good road holding at high speed ( i mean absolute confidence at 140mph) and that is unfortuantely going to require a particular spring rate and damper setup that means low speed ride is compromised (wide tyres for high speed purpose wont help either, or fashionable drug dealer wheels). variable technologys are emerging to solve this. think how magnetic fluids and speed sensitive damper valves are being used more now. citroens system undoubtably offers valuble variability (hydro dynamic 3+) but they still say keen drivers should choose coils ?!?.

According to "Fifth Gear", they do...but I haven't read anything from Citroen yet. Then again, if you were THAT concerned with handling and driving in a "sporty" fashion, you'd probably look at another car anyway (3-Series?).

As for the trade-off between comfort and sportiness using current technology: It doesn't demand low speed ride to be as harsh as in the current A6. An E39 5-Series in "SE" spec., for example, blends comfort and handling with no low-speed harshness and great stability at the further reaches of it's top-end.

not enough probably, but I know many people in such cars dont want body roll as they go round roundabouts at 40 and then suddenly overtaking me in Aberdeen. for bmw, audi etc "bums on seats laddie, bums on seats" = bad low speed ride i guess.

I wouldn't want body roll either, but as mentioned; there are cars that do everything the latest harsh-riding execs can do but without the fuss. Run-flat tyres on new BMWs don't help, and neither do those "drug-dealer" wheels.

I'd actually like a 3-series convertible, but I'd probably steer away from the "M-sport", especially on the E92. (Not only is the suspension better balanced but the colour choice for BMWs M-Sport models is horrific).

Also, if I ever owned an E46 M-sport, I'd definitely change the clichéd 18" "M" wheels. - Practically every chav with a battered E36 316i has them now!

When you corner hard you want your outer wheels to maintain good grip while absorbing bumps (perpendicular tyre contact, get this best in double wishbone, 5 link etc). So linking in with the last paragraph combine a suspension design that maintains good tyre contanct over a wider range of travel and you get a car that grips well all the time and realises better suspension function at higher speed, so higher cornering speeds (illeagel) are suddenly very easy.

That’s definitely the case. You really can throw modern cars around before they start to “let go”, but also look at the tyres we’re fitting these days – they’re getting wider and wider.

That’s actually one of the “fun” things about my Dad’s Mini One D. It has narrow tyres on 15” steel wheels (used for tuition purposes – bent alloys are expensive!), which means that you can play with the car at reasonable speeds. The problem nowadays is that amateurs get-hold of very grippy cars and drive them so fast that by the time you explore the “on the limit” handling, you’re going at an unforgiving speed.

I partly disagree:
Definitions - like i said "hard ride" needs to be thought about. they havent just slashed of all the travel, it just means you need to find the road surfaces (bad in UK, engineers fault?maybe?) and speeds to suit setup to realise such travel effectively. consider compression/rebound damping setup for perfect apsorption of a 80mph bump, it wont work at 30mph the same. ultimate examples of this include the fq400 and nobles etc. Point is uncomfy at 30 wont guarantee uncomfy at 80 or so. Im not saying this is true for all cars but it explains a good few.

Remember also that many cars realise occupant comfort from subframe bushings, particularly at low speeds (fluid filled bushings are very common now) supporting your argument for better comfort.

The problem is that the UK’s roads are in a real mess. Maintenance just isn’t happening on some places and car manufacturers have to realize this. You need to produce a product that’s appropriate for the conditions you want to use it in – you can’t realistically run a BTCC car on the public road, for example (lower it!!! )

I hate to say it but "in my car" (my car is no benchmark on UCP IMO) yes low speed ride suffers (possibly 235 tyres dont help here) but at speed the trademark high speed stability is undeniable. Perhaps they could have found a better compromise and used the double wishbones all round to achieve a better balance than they did. The engine nailed to the grill doesnt help , you could say owning an A4 is like sponsoring a disabled child in some ways.

Lmao! Yes, that’s what I’m saying, and actually your car is one of the ones I’m talking about – a better balance needs to be found IMO, but you don’t have to sacrifice high-speed stability.

your not wrong, i hope the development of these premium cars include that of higher integrity and durability. As you go from B to C to D segment cars i think your paying for a better slice of engineering development, also the higher running costs should attribute to better more considerate maintanance and checks. For example I would rather pay for a good service if the mechanic will inspect my multitude of bushes. Yes its a cost, but petrolheads will pay this if driving is their passion.

You’re tapping in to my head now lol! I just paid extra for a fuel system flush on my car because I suspect it had been sitting around in a dealership for a while with very little in the tank before I bought it. I have nor problem paying a fair price for proper work to be done, but a lot of the time nowadays garages are too keen to rip people off, and because we’re all too busy with our “rat race” lifestyles, we’re too busy to notice (in theory).

haha! i wouldnt buy your car because i want a different set of values from a car - french/citroen does not bother me ultimately.

You do realize I was joking, though (I think you do, just making sure)? Of course everyone will want something different from a car, and we’re all the better for it, but on the subject of my car: It feels a lot better built than older Citroens – I also want to support a company that has the balls to stand-up and be different again. This is a genuinely good car (the first from Citroen in a while!) and other people’s previous connotations shouldn’t get in the way of them considering it – the only problem now is the dealerships.

sorry, meant to say " fit as standard" not "offer". as for bull semen im no expert (its big in spain, see Albert), you might need that to counter the depreciation of the twin chevron (<-thats a joke! just so you know, got it? sure?)

Lol, why do you think I bought a pre-reg car? I deliberately did the maths so that now, I could in theory sell the car for more than I bought it for. This was the best way for me to own a C4 ATM (until people realize Citroen are producing “good” cars again and their values rise). I’m not sure how long I’ll be keeping her, but at least I haven’t bitten the bullet of first-year depreciation.

no worrys, we will keep giving you oppertunities.

Haha, nice!

[Waugh-terfall]

According to "Fifth Gear", they do...but I haven't read anything from Citroen yet. Then again, if you were THAT concerned with handling and driving in a "sporty" fashion, you'd probably look at another car anyway (3-Series?).

As for the trade-off between comfort and sportiness using current technology: It doesn't demand low speed ride to be as harsh as in the current A6. An E39 5-Series in "SE" spec., for example, blends comfort and handling with no low-speed harshness and great stability at the further reaches of it's top-end.



I wouldn't want body roll either, but as mentioned; there are cars that do everything the latest harsh-riding execs can do but without the fuss. Run-flat tyres on new BMWs don't help, and neither do those "drug-dealer" wheels.

I'd actually like a 3-series convertible, but I'd probably steer away from the "M-sport", especially on the E92. (Not only is the suspension better balanced but the colour choice for BMWs M-Sport models is horrific).

Also, if I ever owned an E46 M-sport, I'd definitely change the clichéd 18" "M" wheels. - Practically every chav with a battered E36 316i has them now!



That’s definitely the case. You really can throw modern cars around before they start to “let go”, but also look at the tyres we’re fitting these days – they’re getting wider and wider.

That’s actually one of the “fun” things about my Dad’s Mini One D. It has narrow tyres on 15” steel wheels (used for tuition purposes – bent alloys are expensive!), which means that you can play with the car at reasonable speeds. The problem nowadays is that amateurs get-hold of very grippy cars and drive them so fast that by the time you explore the “on the limit” handling, you’re going at an unforgiving speed.



The problem is that the UK’s roads are in a real mess. Maintenance just isn’t happening on some places and car manufacturers have to realize this. You need to produce a product that’s appropriate for the conditions you want to use it in – you can’t realistically run a BTCC car on the public road, for example (lower it!!! )



Lmao! Yes, that’s what I’m saying, and actually your car is one of the ones I’m talking about – a better balance needs to be found IMO, but you don’t have to sacrifice high-speed stability.



You’re tapping in to my head now lol! I just paid extra for a fuel system flush on my car because I suspect it had been sitting around in a dealership for a while with very little in the tank before I bought it. I have nor problem paying a fair price for proper work to be done, but a lot of the time nowadays garages are too keen to rip people off, and because we’re all too busy with our “rat race” lifestyles, we’re too busy to notice (in theory).



You do realize I was joking, though (I think you do, just making sure)? Of course everyone will want something different from a car, and we’re all the better for it, but on the subject of my car: It feels a lot better built than older Citroens – I also want to support a company that has the balls to stand-up and be different again. This is a genuinely good car (the first from Citroen in a while!) and other people’s previous connotations shouldn’t get in the way of them considering it – the only problem now is the dealerships.



Lol, why do you think I bought a pre-reg car? I deliberately did the maths so that now, I could in theory sell the car for more than I bought it for. This was the best way for me to own a C4 ATM (until people realize Citroen are producing “good” cars again and their values rise). I’m not sure how long I’ll be keeping her, but at least I haven’t bitten the bullet of first-year depreciation.



Haha, nice!

I'll second that, there's an E36 318i on E36 M3 EVO alloys on one of the council estates, and near here is another E36 318i on the 18inch E46 M3 alloys, A. They both look absolutely terrible and B. I cannot begin to imagine how incredibly uncomfortable they must be to ride in.

To be totally honest, If I had the money to by a BMW with all the goodies suck as Xenons, Navigation, iPod, Leather, Heated seats, climate, Bluetooth and still get an M-Sport I would. If I couldn't it would be a 'lesser' model but fully loaded inside. I say this because I still think non-M-Sport BMW's look a little 'boring', but don't get me wrong, I'd only go M-Sport if I could afford all the inside goodies as well! As for colours, all you need is Lemon Leather on Alpine White! E92 3-coupe/coupe-cabrio I wouldn't go M-Sport either, I really don't like the wheels they offer and I'd rather a slightly more supple ride.

I don't get why so many execs go M-Sport and M-Sport styling only, surely if you're an exec trauling the nation you want bluetooth rather than the silly earpieces and satnav to alleviate the risk of being foolish with a map and have smaller wheels to reduce the potential for tram-lining.

As for the A6's ride, I don't find ours that bad to be honest on its 225/17s It's really rather comfy but for some reason I went in a 1week old A6 Avant last night on the same tyres but with the same alloys as Jediali's A4 and I was all over the place, I don't know whether it was because the suspension was brand new or something(?) or if we were just on roads that I've not been on in our A6 (and they were pretty piss-poor roads at that).

I think you got an absolutely fantastic deal on the C4, I honestly don't see the point in buying brand-new cars unless you can afford not to notice the initial depreciation. It's far more worth it in the long run to search around for a car with the spec you want that's got like a couple of thousand miles under it. I.e. My Dad's criteria when buying his A6 was:
17" Alloys
DVD Sat Nav
Bluetooth
Leather
Preferably Diesel
Auto-actuating boot-lid
Digital Climate Control
Less than 6months old
Less than 5,000mi on the clock
Max £30,000

There were a fair few that met that but mainly 2.0TDI, which we almost went for (Phantom Black S-Line 2.0TDI @ Derby Audi) but turned down because of that engine and we didn't want to risk getting it down from Derby to find we didn't really want it, but he still got almost exactly what he wanted, but we stuck with petrol.

If you're really lucky, you might find a dealer that's closing down/moving premises and is giving discounts (like we did). Martins Audi to Basingstoke Audi switch-over FTMFW!

Another thing about tyres is why do people always spec huuge wheels when they know they'll complain at tyre prices when they wear out, my mate just changed his front near-side tyre on his 03 Polo, £50, cannot argue with that.

[Ferrer]

I personally think that M-Sport packs, like S-Line and AMG optical packs, are some of the most pointless options to ever appear on a car options list. Why would anyone want worse ride, more tyre noise, higher fuel consumption and so on? I'd even discuss the fact they actually look better than the standard models. I personally would never order them.

Regarding the A6 ride, yes it's bad. Especially for a 4 door executive saloon. Altough I have only tried one with 18" wheels and standard suspension. I guess that if you stayed with the standard wheels and air suspension it might be better. Yet, the 1-Series is better and if it stays that way all that way up the 5er, then there's really no contest, the BMW is the better car.

Alternatively if you really consider ride comfort really important you could just buy a Citroen C6 and save a lot of money in the process.

[henk4]

Alternatively if you really consider ride comfort really important you could just buy a Citroen C6 and save a lot of money in the process.

there is an even cheaper option available now, using the same platform

[Ferrer]

there is an even cheaper option available now, using the same platform

Just isn't as stylish as the big Cit.

[Clivey]

Just isn't as stylish as the big Cit.

After sitting in the new C5 and C6, I still truthfully prefer the C4.

It's obvious the C6 was designed some time ago, as despite the car's shape still looking fantastic, some of the details let it down, such as the side-repeaters etc. Also, the interior (dashboard mainly) isn't as innovative, fresh, funky or nice to use as that of a Citroen that's been designed more recently.

Initial impressions from sitting in the C5: I like the steering-wheel, which looks even nicer than the one in my C4, but the rest of the front of the cabin appears to be "half-hearted". It looks great, but all of the little storage comaprtments appear to be useless and completely the wrong shape to hold anything that I would actually want to put in them...

...however, my opinion could soon change, as I only sat in one very briefly.

[Ferrer]

After sitting in the new C5 and C6, I still truthfully prefer the C4.

It's obvious the C6 was designed some time ago, as despite the car's shape still looking fantastic, some of the details let it down, such as the side-repeaters etc. Also, the interior (dashboard mainly) isn't as innovative, fresh, funky or nice to use as that of a Citroen that's been designed more recently.

They are not the same price point, are they?

If anything the C6 is possibly the most stylish E-segment car currently on sale. And if we compare it to the germans there really is no contest, excpet perhaps for the CLS. Critising the side-repeaters is just nitpicking. I agree that the interior isn't as good as the exterior but it isn't bad either. And there's always the clever hydroneumatic suspension.

[Clivey]

They are not the same price point, are they?

No, definitely not lol, but what I was comparing was the "style" of the cars as well as the package as a whole. I personally think the C4 looks better than the C6...partly because of...

If anything the C6 is possibly the most stylish E-segment car currently on sale. And if we compare it to the germans there really is no contest, excpet perhaps for the CLS. Critising the side-repeaters is just nitpicking. I agree that the interior isn't as good as the exterior but it isn't bad either. And there's always the clever hydroneumatic suspension.

...the little details. The side-repeaters are just an example to illustrate my point. It's just obvious to me when I stand next to the C6 and really take the design in that they waited far too long to launch this car. The basic shape and ideas are still bang-on, but the details look as if they're from a previous-generation car. Hopefully though, a facelifted model and eventually a replacement model will go a long way to addressing this.

[Waugh-terfall]

I still like the fact that Citroen promise to buy back any C6 when it isn't wanted any more.

[Clivey]

I still like the fact that Citroen promise to buy back any C6 when it isn't wanted any more.

They say that, but they don't tell you how much money they'll give you for one! All that means is that they'll pay you "a sum of money" for one. Could be a fiver!

There's nothing "wrong" with the current C6, which is largely a very good car, it just lacks the polish it would have had if the development budget were bigger and it would have been even "fresher" if they'd have released it closer to when they showed the initial concepts.

If Citroen do as they're bound to do on the revised/new C6 (if they deem it financially sound to make another!) and combine all of their current features, it should make for an extremely competent car. Tom Ford on "Fifth Gear" gave the new C5 a rave review, so it seems Citroen are getting back to making the kind of car they're famous for and we want to see from them.

Imagine an even more fantastic looking car in the same sort of shape as the current model with features such as the fixed-hub steering wheel and a full-length panoramic roof. Improve the interior to a "latest" design and add a few new tricks...yes?

[Waugh-terfall]

I'd have thought that it'd depreciate so fast, you'd have to PAY Citroen to 'buy' it back

[Ferrer]

Clive, I doubt Citroen will make any money with the C6. The C6 for them is halo car, much in the same way the 8C is for Alfa with the difference that Citroen will produce a few more C6s than Alfa will make 8Cs.

It may not be perfect, but it definitely has more character than anything from Sttutgart, Munich or Ingolstad.