SAAB sold to Koenigsegg

[Kitdy]

The Bimmers are probably the best driving (normal) cars of the premium brands currently on sale, so if I wanted the ultimate drive, no I wouldn't.

But, if I could have two cars, one for the weekends and another to cruise the motorways then Saabs start to make sense. Suddenly you don't need the ultimate drive. And then I wouldn't need a BMW.

So... would you cruise the highways in the BMW or weekend drive in it? And why would you want something worse to drive than BMW if it was an option? You said it was the ultimate drive then if you had two cars you'd accept a lesser substitute? I think if you could have two cars you'd go for something like a 335i and a Miata/Mini/Z4 M. Why bother with Saab at all?

[Ferrer]

So... would you cruise the highways in the BMW or weekend drive in it? And why would you want something worse to drive than BMW if it was an option? You said it was the ultimate drive then if you had two cars you'd accept a lesser substitute? I think if you could have two cars you'd go for something like a 335i and a Miata/Mini/Z4 M. Why bother with Saab at all?

If I can have an MX-5 (or similar) I don't need a 335i. There's cars that can do most of what it does for a lower price.

Furhtermore Saabs used to have many good selling points, like the design, practicality and turbocharged oomph amongst them. They also used to have interestin engineering solutions. The 9-5 Aero still has some of them I'd say (and costs less than the 335i).

Don't get me wrong, I think BMWs are excellent, but they aren't the only option out there.

[Kitdy]

If I can have an MX-5 (or similar) I don't need a 335i. There's cars that can do most of what it does for a lower price.

Furhtermore Saabs used to have many good selling points, like the design, practicality and turbocharged oomph amongst them. They also used to have interestin engineering solutions. The 9-5 Aero still has some of them I'd say (and costs less than the 335i).

Don't get me wrong, I think BMWs are excellent, but they aren't the only option out there.

But amongst all the potential cars out there, do you really see room in your garage for a Saab?

Don't get me wrong, I think Saabs are shit, but they aren't the only option out there.

[Ferrer]

But amongst all the potential cars out there, do you really see room in your garage for a Saab?

Don't get me wrong, I think Saabs are shit, but they aren't the only option out there.

Why not? Of course I'd have to try it out, but I wouldn't discard it at first like I would with a... I don't know... an Audi.

[Revo]

So... would you cruise the highways in the BMW or weekend drive in it? And why would you want something worse to drive than BMW if it was an option? You said it was the ultimate drive then if you had two cars you'd accept a lesser substitute? I think if you could have two cars you'd go for something like a 335i and a Miata/Mini/Z4 M. Why bother with Saab at all?

Well at least over here Saab has a very strong cult following because of its aeronautical roots (and maybe because Sweden is such a nice place).

Despite all of its connections to GM and outdated offerings, Saab is considered as a choice for individuals whereas BMW-Audi have a chavistic image problem and MB is a car for oldsters or taxi drivers.

You see, rational thinking gets you nowhere here. Saab rules and that is the fact!

[Kitdy]

Despite all of its connections to GM and outdated offerings, Saab is considered as a choice for individuals whereas BMW-Audi have a chavistic image problem and MB is a car for oldsters or taxi drivers.

I don't think you should ever buy or not buy a car based on the image associated with said car.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I don't think you should ever buy or not buy a car based on the image associated with said car.

but certain images are well founded, such as those quoted by Revo.
they can't be blindly applied, but in most cases they work.

[Ferrer]

but certain images are well founded, such as those quoted by Revo.
they can't be blindly applied, but in most cases they work.

Even if they are it should not affect your buying decision as Kitdy says.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Even if they are it should not affect your buying decision as Kitdy says.

maybe theoretically, but when something may in some way be a problem for you, you should care about it.
Say I like the Audi A3, but I'm not a complete moron as A3's owners are.
With the very bad image they have, I think I would definitely want to avoid to be seen as one of them, to be considered as one of those who bought the car just to get more chicks, who doesn't know a damn thing about cars and so on (which would prevent me frm buying an A3 in first place, hypothetically).

There us a limit between what is recommendable, and what is doable.
It's like saying a car maker shouldn't listen to the silly requests of the buyers, which is correct as they don't know basically what they are asking, but they are also those who pay your bills.
So it's a trade-off, which may be different for every single person, but it's still a trade off.

[Ferrer]

maybe theoretically, but when something may in some way be a problem for you, you should care about it.
Say I like the Audi A3, but I'm not a complete moron as A3's owners are.
With the very bad image they have, I think I would definitely want to avoid to be seen as one of them, to be considered as one of those who bought the car just to get more chicks, who doesn't know a damn thing about cars and so on (which would prevent me frm buying an A3 in first place, hypothetically).

There us a limit between what is recommendable, and what is doable.
It's like saying a car maker shouldn't listen to the silly requests of the buyers, which is correct as they don't know basically what they are asking, but they are also those who pay your bills.
So it's a trade-off, which may be different for every single person, but it's still a trade off.

You know that I drive a 1er and it's brilliant. And most BMW owners are twats as well.

And yet that didn't prevent me from getting one. Yes, sometimes I may have been seen as an stupid asshole, but everytime you get the bimmer down a mountain road it's clear why anyone who likes cars and driving should at least consider it. And I certainly wasn't going to pass up on the best drivers C-segment hatchback out there because some imbeciles drive it. That'd be like admiting defeat, and that'd annoy the hell out of me.

[LeonOfTheDead]

You know that I drive a 1er and it's brilliant. And most BMW owners are twats as well.

And yet that didn't prevent me from getting one. Yes, sometimes I may have been seen as an stupid asshole, but everytime you get the bimmer down a mountain road it's clear why anyone who likes cars and driving should at least consider it. And I certainly wasn't going to pass up on the best drivers C-segment hatchback out there because some imbeciles drive it. That'd be like admiting defeat, and that'd annoy the hell out of me.

I know, but the 1-series doesn't have an owners' issue as large as the A3's.
And despite being quite sure the 1 would do the job excellently, I'd probably go for something more "peculiar", like a Civic, which reflects me more than other cars.
Saying I'd "need" the best performing C segment car, I'd still avoid the 1, just because it would be the "easy" path, and I don't like BMWs in first place.
In this segment of cars, I'd definitely look for something insanely FWD.
I'd buy a Boxter/Cayman though, regardless of the images they have, but it's something less common in my age-range, so less afflicted by this problem and less talked about among the people I'd frequent.

It's like, I don't dress in a certain way because I don't want people to look at me I'm a damn emo, for example, even I like black shirts and so on. It's like a message.

There are things which are ruined by the people who own them, being cars or other things.
It's not a defeat, it's a fact.
Knowing they are fine with that, I'm also sure I can find something else to satisfy my tastes and as good as the first option.

The 1 could be the only RWD hatch out there, but it isn't the only choice.
What other people think isn't on the first page of the reasons why I'd buy a certain cars, but I'd definitely avoid a pink Continental GT after seeing Paris Hilton has one.

[Ferrer]

I know, but the 1-series doesn't have an owners' issue as large as the A3's.
And despite being quite sure the 1 would do the job excellently, I'd probably go for something more "peculiar", like a Civic, which reflects me more than other cars.
Saying I'd "need" the best performing C segment car, I'd still avoid the 1, just because it would be the "easy" path, and I don't like BMWs in first place.
In this segment of cars, I'd definitely look for something insanely FWD.
I'd buy a Boxter/Cayman though, regardless of the images they have, but it's something less common in my age-range, so less afflicted by this problem and less talked about among the people I'd frequent.

It's like, I don't dress in a certain way because I don't want people to look at me I'm a damn emo, for example, even I like black shirts and so on. It's like a message.

There are things which are ruined by the people who own them, being cars or other things.
It's not a defeat, it's a fact.
Knowing they are fine with that, I'm also sure I can find something else to satisfy my tastes and as good as the first option.

The 1 could be the only RWD hatch out there, but it isn't the only choice.
What other people think isn't on the first page of the reasons why I'd buy a certain cars, but I'd definitely avoid a pink Continental GT after seeing Paris Hilton has one.

I don't care about what others think of me. It does certainly annoy me seeing twats in cars I'd like to own or drive, but that certainly wouldn't prevent me at all from getting them. If you do so it's like giving them reason, and why possibly car manufacturers do monstrosities as they've been doing recently. Because normal human beings have stopped buying their cars and only twats remain within their costumers. And twats love SUV, folding metal roofs and flappy paddle gearboxes.

I also don't want different for the sake of difference. I want the difference to be there for some reason, to be useful. Like hydropneumatic suspension in Citroëns or boxer engines in Subarus. Which is why the Civic won't do. Yes, it looks different, but essentially behind the pretty body you are getting a worse than the last gen middle of the road hatch.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I don't care about what others think of me. It does certainly annoy me seeing twats in cars I'd like to own or drive, but that certainly wouldn't prevent me at all from getting them. If you do so it's like giving them reason, and why possibly car manufacturers do monstrosities as they've been doing recently. Because normal human beings have stopped buying their cars and only twats remain within their costumers. And twats love SUV, folding metal roofs and flappy paddle gearboxes.

I also don't want different for the sake of difference. I want the difference to be there for some reason, to be useful. Like hydropneumatic suspension in Citroëns or boxer engines in Subarus. Which is why the Civic won't do. Yes, it looks different, but essentially behind the pretty body you are getting a worse than the last gen middle of the road hatch.

Even with "normal human beings" being still among a certain brand's customers portfolio, twats are definitely more of them, and therefore still driving their choices.
Also, considering how I'd use a car, a Civic would make more sense than a 1 Series. let alone the fact I don't think the car is worse than it's previous gen, I think journalists were expecting something else, a turbo maybe (like for the Clio RS), more power even if it wasn't necessary.

[Ferrer]

Even with "normal human beings" being still among a certain brand's customers portfolio, twats are definitely more of them, and therefore still driving their choices.
Also, considering how I'd use a car, a Civic would make more sense than a 1 Series. let alone the fact I don't think the car is worse than it's previous gen, I think journalists were expecting something else, a turbo maybe (like for the Clio RS), more power even if it wasn't necessary.

So why downgrade the car with torsion beam suspension, when everyone is moving towards IRS?

[LeonOfTheDead]

So why downgrade the car with torsion beam suspension, when everyone is moving towards IRS?

it's like "why using a manual gearbox when everyone is moving towards DSGs?".
Because every solution isn't necessarily better than the previous one, and each of them is better suitable for a specific appliance, which may not be the final product/car on which it's installed, but perhaps the very area in which it' working, the material with which it's working and so on.

The only thing I read actually bad, despite being personal, on the Civic is the lack of power. Now I accept cars are getting heavier, but saying a 140 bhp 1,8 engine is underpowered on an everyday Civic is just a nonsense.
Cars are heavier, it's a fact, for a lot of reasons which aren't bad engineering but necessities, as safety just to call one. But the power/weight ration isn't the right parameter to adopt when calculating what id sensed to adopt on a common road car, what's safe. An Hummer weighting 3 tons with 300 bhp is still more dangerous than a 500 with 100 bhp, regardless of the shapes.