UK police replacing the Imprezas with Lexus IS-F cruisers

[Rasmus]

Part 2/3

If we're talking about a plain old stock Charger R/T, I believe it will do an estimated low to mid 14 second quarter mile, and a low 14 only under excellent conditions. With bolt-ons it might just dip into the 13s. That, to me, is horribly slow, and it doesn’t impress me.

The following cars, given the same driver, will easily be capable of outrunning an R/T on a track:

05-09 Nissan 350Z
10 Nissan 370Z
05-09 Mustang GT, incl. Shelby GT, Bullitt et. al.
10 Mustang GT
00-01 Mustang Cobra, non-FI
03-04 Mustang Cobra
98-02 LS1 Camaros and Firebirds
10 Camaro SS
08-10 Cobalt SS
03-05 SRT4
E46 M3

And this is just off the top of my head.

As for cars that it will run even with and sometimes beat, the following spring to mind:

03-04 Nissan 350Z
10 Camaro V6
04-10 Honda S2000, with the later MY having the advantage.

3. What is a "Mexico car"???? I can't beleive I am hearing all these new terms eventhough we live in the same country. I must be living under a rock or a very secluded cave.

Being disrespectful will get you nowhere, especially on these boards. Please reconsider your tone.

The term Mexico, with regards to high powered cars, started being used on primarily online forums as well as on video hosting sites as a disclaimer for doing 40-roll and 60-roll races on Interstates and highways. Thus, a Mexico Car is one that does high speed runs on public roads. As it has turned out, most of these cars are not your average street racing car, but instead more powerful, modified supercars and built muscle cars capable of +180mph.

4. The GTO is probably on the same level as the Dodge SRT-8, and both are one step ahead of the Dodge R/T. A stock Z06 and GT500, are one step ahead of the Dodge SRT-8 and GTO. Each of these cars has at least a 5.7 Litre or a 6.2L V-8 engine in them, and taken together, are all mostly faster than the Dodge R/T---more horsepower and torque in most cases. So, you are comparing apples to oranges here.

I am glad we seem to agree on the hierarchy, and that all are faster than both SRT8 and the R/T. They all compare on some levels though. I fail to see where engine displacement comes into play as the R/T has a 5.7, the SRT8 a 6.1, and the GT500 a 5.4 albeit supercharged. Whether or not the Hemis are good engines doesn’t really matter since they have plenty of vehicle to lug around.

And how many of these cars do you really see running around our highways everyday???? Very few to warrant any remarks on them being associated with cops pulling them over.

I believe I see more of these cars running around daily than most people, so I will of course give you that.

Just to give you an idea of where I’m coming from: My local shop just built a 1080rwhp '98 Mustang for the street *). I was in an 816rwhp twin turboed '98 Cobra the other day *). I know of at least three 03-04 Cobras pushing around 600rwhp, one is at 890rwhp *). There's quite a few blown S197 GT's over 500rwhp *). I know three people with C5 and C6 Z06's with most of them being modified. I know of at least one local twin turboed Viper in the quad digit rwhp range. There are multiple LS1 F-bodies in the high 400's and low 500’s NA. I see different, stock Shelby GT500's at least once or twice a week. I have grown used to these cars, and now no longer consider my old M3 as fast.

*) Videos of dyno pulls at the shop I frequent have been added in the Appendix.

I am by no means saying these cars make up the majority, but I am saying that, yes, these cars do exist, and yes, I see them on the street. Just because they are fast or expensive cars doesn't mean people don't use them. These are the cars that I was referring to in my original post. Some of these cars are Mexico Cars. Some of them have run from SHP Charger R/Ts.

I am also not saying outrunning the police happens on a regular occasion. That would be preposterous. I am merely saying that, yes, it does happen. I do not condone it, but it happens.

5. All the smaller cars you talked about in your story (S2000), if true, probably had forced induction systems. As a naturally aspirated car, which of the small cars you metioned is capable of matching the Charger R/T one-on-one???? Using an S2000 as an example is really fishy and suspect. An S2000, has so little torque that it is laughable. Do you ever wonder why it has to rev up to 8000 - 9000 rpm to stay in a real race???

As for the S2000, I honestly don't know about the one the Officer referred to. Most likely it was not stock. Most S2000s I see on the track or on the street seldom are.

Please refer to the above mentioned list of cars, and feel free to subtract the FI cars, although I'm not sure why you seem to want only NA cars. Big displacement NA and low displacement FI, are both ways of producing torque.

Apart from that, an S2000 will run close to heads up with a Charger R/T on a drag strip. They're both mid to low 14 second cars, with the advantage depending on the S2000 MY going to the R/T. I mentioned it in my previous post as a way to illustrate that even a relatively slow car has been and will be able to run from the police, if the initial gap is there. Again, the gap is the one thing that will allow a successful (depending on how you view it) getaway.

And no, I haven't wondered why it needs to rev. It's called variable valve timing and lift control. Peak torque doesn't necessarily matter as much as torque over time. The Toyota RVX-06 put out 202 lbs-ft (or 274Nm) of torque, but still had a mean effective pressure of 14.3 bar, or roughly the same maximum MEP as that of the I6 in the E46 M3 CSL. I would hardly call the Toyota engine weak or ineffective. But I digress.

6. Your quartermile numbers for an SRT-8, is even more suspect and troubling. A stock charger SRT-8 will do a quarter mile most likely in less time, on a good day or if it is functioning properly. Mid to high 13s is the time a mildly modified G-37 or a stock 370Z will easily achieve.

There is nothing magical about my numbers or the SRT8's performance. It is not a stellar performer. The platform is too heavy, and the first few generations of SRT8s had horrible shift point settings in their automatic transmissions.

Again, a stock SRT8 under ideal circumstances such as a low density altitude will do a 13.2-13.3 quartermile. At my local track they have run mid 13's mainly due to the average 1500-3500 ft. DA. I have not to this day seen a Charger SRT8 run faster than a 13.6 on that track. This is what I stated before, and I stick by it.

I will refrain from speaking of the Infinitis, as I have not had the pleasure of either running one or seen one running.

7. I don't need the link. I already know that a lightly modified Mustang GT will do a mid to low 13s on the quarter mile. Its performance is at par with the performance of a stock Nissan 370Z.

Actually, this one I would like to give to the 370Z. The ones I've seen on the track have been faster than the GTs on the day. I really do like the Zs. They're fun, little cars on a well engineered platform.

8. Again, you make very suspect comments. A Z06 and a GT500 are on a level or step higher than a Dodge SRT-8. Again, you compare apples to oranges. Perhaps the C6 vette or their 2009 LT1 and LT2 versions, may be on the same level as the Dodge SRT-8. And by the way, the power-to-weight ratio of the Vette (this means the vette is lighter than the Charger) is always going to be better than that of the Charger. Charger weighs about 4,000 pounds while the Vette weighs about 3,100 pounds. So, the weight advantage the vette has, is painfully obvious. Less weight, better acceleration.

All the C6's -- be they 2005-2007 LS2 motored or 2008 and up LS3 motored -- are comfortable 12 second cars, and a step up from the SRT8. They are all faster, and I'm glad you provide the reason for this yourself. The SRT8s are pigs, and they suffer badly for it. They are not insanely fast by any means.

Also, thank you for explaining what power to weight ratio is.

9. A lightly modified 350Z will struggle hard to make it to the high 13s on the quartermile. I know because the engine in my car is the VQ35DE engine, same as that in the early generation 350Zs. This result gets better with 350Zs that have the VQ35HR engines.

I agree. It depends on the MY of the 350Z. I have still seen faster quarters out of late MY, mildly tuned 350Zs on my track, than I have out of the SRT8s.

[Rasmus]

Part 3/3

10. Again, your final comments worry me a great deal. Why would you take Dodge SRT-4 over a Chevy Cobalt SS??? The Dodge SRT-4 is prone to lag because it uses a turbo, and the Chevy SS Cobalt is generally free of lag because it uses a supercharger. In fact, the turbo lag in the SRT-4 is so bad that i was amazed at how good the turbo in the Mazda Speed 3 really is. And by Turbo, in the Dodge SRT-4, do you mean stage 1 turbo??

First off, it doesn't sound like you know the full story of the Cobalt SS. It came with a roots style Eaton blower first, but when GM's contract with Eaton ran out, they introduced the turbocharged version.

Secondly, on the track most cars launch at an RPM that is in the beginning of the power band with the power adder of choice. This is also where 2-step launch controls and WOT -- or Wide Open Throttle -- shift boxes come into play so as to not lose boost.

As for turbo vs. supercharger, knowing what I know now, having driven multiple forced induction high performance cars, and having built a supercharged car myself, I would go for a turbo -- provided I had a lower end that could cope with the high boost levels. On a street car the power potential of a turbo setup is simply bigger than that of a blower.

Also, I am not quite sure where in my post you see me wanting an SRT4. I want neither Skittle nor Cobalt. In my experience they break down too easily once they get proper fast, eg. 11 second or faster quartermile, and I am honestly not a fan of them from a daily driven performance car point of view. What I did say in my previous comment, was that I would be more worried in the staging lanes, if I were to run against a car that had an SRT4 badge on the on the trunk, than one that said SRT8. And I stand by that comment.

Lastly, I am not sure what you mean by "And by Turbo, in the Dodge SRT-4, do you mean stage 1 turbo??" I have not made any direct reference to the SRT4's turbo, or the capabilities of the car with a turbo swap.

I personally ran a Dodge SRT-4 prior to modifications in my car and i was surprised at how slow it was in picking speed, and yet it was suspiciously hailed as king of small cars. If I had the modifications I have in my car today, then, it wouldn't even be close. Try running a Chevy Cobalt SS and it will hand you your behind without even a blink. A stock Chevy Cobalt SS will spank a Mustang GT without breaking a sweat. Even a stock Corvette has to work relatively hard to beat a Chevy Cobalt SS, on a bad day.

You seem to think highly of the Cobalts, and I will gladly admit to them having the potential of becoming nasty little buggers once built, but we still see faster Skittles than Cobalts. I cannot say why, but it seems to be the platform of choice for FWD racers that don’t want a Civic. Also, I am glad that you acknowledge there is nothing special about a stock Skittle. That warms my heart.

I have run both stock turbocharged as well as stock supercharged Cobalt SS cars on the track -- several times -- and I'm sorry to report back that none of them handed me my behind with or without blinking. I may have simply encountered bad drivers and slow cars, but they still didn't impress me all that much. That said I did not run faster than a built, black SS that consistently cut 0.1-0.2 second faster quarters than me. That one was faster than me. Curiously enough, it happened to be a turbo Cobalt. I will give credit where credit is due.

I still stand by that any C6 will be capable of running faster than any dealer installed stage 1, 2 or 3 Cobalt SS/Sport. The C6 bone stock is a mid to high 12 second car with even a bad driver.

11. Contrary to your comments, the GT500, the Z-06, and the base Vette LT1 and LT2 versions are all more expensive than the Dodge SRT-8, by at least $10, 000 or more.

I did not comment on the price. I did not state that the SRT8 was the same price. I can only say that when I was looking at the cars mentioned, it didn't matter much to me if it was plus or minus $10k. If you go out to buy a performance car that is faster than your average family econobox GTI-R-whatnot, price is secondary and not a deciding factor. I also acknowledge that this is not the case for all people.

12. The V-8 Camarro is a complete slouch. It has about the same performance numbers as the Ford Mustang GT and the Nissan 370z, eventhough it has a lot more horsepower under the hood. The V-6 Camaro version seems to be a better performer than the V-8 version. Frankly, the V-8 Camarro and the Pontiac G8 GT, are about the worst performing muscle cars GM has ever made because of their unnecessary heavy weight, though they look great in person.

While I certainly can and will agree with you on the new Camaro being slower than anticipated, I would not call it a "complete slouch". The Camaro SS has begun running 12's in the hands of normal people, and they are certainly faster stock for stock than the Mustang GT and the 370Z.

That the new cars are disappointingly heavy is something I myself have stated on these boards several times, but again, I will give credit where credit is due. I may not like the 2010 Camaros styling or heavy platform, but it is still a faster car in a straight line than many, if not all, of its stock competitors.

13. And for the record, I have run with most of these cars and so I am giving you first hand information.

That is perfectly okay, and I fully respect your opinions on the Infinitis and Nissans. Of the American cars mentioned, save for the Cobalt and SRT4, I have had the pleasure of having had a few of them in my possession. This is part of the reason why I am less than impressed with the Charger SRT8. To me it’s a nice road trip vehicle, and not a performance sedan.

14. Finally, how many people do you think can afford a Z06 or a GT500 that can technically outrun a Police Dodge R/T or a Dodge SRT-8 under almost any condition?? Are these cars so common in your area, which i doubt they are, that you speak of them as if they are taxi cabs?? I was asking you for daily drivers that can outrun a Police Dodge Charger R/T, since most cars on the road are daily drivers. I still haven't gotten a convincing response from you.

This is not an “under almost any condition”. Please reread my previous post, as it seems you have not understood my point. I do not wish to repeat myself.

The only situation that I know of in which the SHP cars have been outrun, is if they are either travelling in the opposite direction or parked on the median or the side of the Interstate or highway.

To put it frankly, yes, these cars are common in my circle of friends and acquaintances. Again, doubt all you want, it is a natural human response, but I have nothing to gain by appearing dishonest - especially not on this board where I've come to respect the sober tone and people's opinion greatly.

As for convincing you, I honestly don't feel the need to.

To round this off, I would again like to focus on my original statement

[..]the R/Ts are being outrun around here. Not even the SRT8s are that hard to outrun either..

I stand by that. The SHP and local PD Chargers are still being outrun in the situations described, and the SRT8 is still an underpowered pig of a muscle car.

If you think any of the Chargers have "insane acceleration", you have not been in a fast car. If you ever find yourself in the central NC area, I will gladly take you out in my car that, while still several hundred pounds lighter than the Charger SRT8, currently puts down more hp on the rear wheels than the SRT8 is rated at the flywheel. My car is considered slow compared to what else is running around.

[Rasmus]

Appendix
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuAZJ2uV50k"]YouTube - Twin Turbo 1000 hp Saleen Video[/nomedia]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsqCOSVX-7I"]YouTube - Fastlane Motorsports Twin Turbo 01 Cobra race tune Drew Owens 24psi[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwvrQWDgyWI"]YouTube - Fastlane Motorsports - 07 Mustang GT CS KB supercharged - Johhny B[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy7AFTfBD8k"]YouTube - Fastlane Motorsports - 98 Mustang Cobra Twin Turbo Ken H. dyno[/ame]

[G35COUPE]

Part 1/3



You're welcome. I enjoy a discussion as much as anyone. A LEO is a Law Enforcement Officer. English is not my primary or secondary language, so thank you for noticing my terribly fancy words.



First off, this thread was about faster than average police vehicles , and not general performance characteristics of a family 4-door saloon. It seems like I have struck a nerve with you for not being impressed by the R/Ts.

Secondly, the situation described is is not a hypothetical situation. This is the situation here in NC in which people can get away, simply because the LEO from a starting point is at a severe disadvantage.

The point I tried to make to you, was that it doesn't matter if it's a Crown Vic or a Charger R/T. Neither is fast enough to catch the people in fast cars who know radar has been on them when they were going 100mph, and have subsequently decided to run. They are long gone by the time the LEO gets up to speed. The gap is simply too big for the police vehicle in pursuit to catch up. If you fail to consider this, we cannot continue this part of the discussion.

Now as for the psychological aspect of being pursued by the police, yes, most people of course will slow down and pull over. Some, however, will not even see the lights.

Since the main focus of the thread has turned, to make it easier for the mods, I split the second part of my answer into separate posts.

1. How is English not your primary or secondary language?? I am confused. What does NC mean---North Chicago, North Carolina, or what???

2. You did not strike any nerves at all. I particularly don't like Dodge Chargers because they perform poorly, based on my experience, in track-like conditions. I am personally thrilled when i go driving in my twist and turns, which is where the Chargers perform poorly.

3. Why would you seperate the performance of a car from its intended purpose??? Does a Charger R/T being used for family purposes, make it any less of a performance car, if the same R/T is used by the Police???

4. I maintain that the situation is hypothetical to the extent that (1) most people don' t have fast enough cars to outrun a Dodge Charger (2) most people do pull over when they see blue lights.

5. Again I ask you, how many of these fast cars do you think exist on the roads, relative to the general population?? Fewer than you would imagine. And, because they are so few, they are insignificant to be considered in the scenario you layed out. Thus, a reason why I maintain your scenario is hypothetical.

6. How anyone can miss the really bright blue lights behind them, leaves me wondering. I am not saying it does no happen, but, it raises questions about the driver's competence on the highway.

[Rasmus]

1. How is English not your primary or secondary language?? I am confused. What does NC mean---North Chicago, North Carolina, or what??? .

I am a Danish Citizen. I speak Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, English, German, French, some Russian, Flemish, and I try to pick up new languages when I can. I read some Korean, but only enough to get by with the public transportation in Seoul.

NC is North Carolina. As it appears you are American, I thought the meaning of NC was obvious. I do apologize.

2. You did not strike any nerves at all. I particularly don't like Dodge Chargers because they perform poorly, base don myt experience, in track-like ocnditions. I am personally thrilled when i go driving in my twist and turns, which is where the Chargers perform poorly.

I agree, and I am relieved I did not strike a nerve. My experience has taught me personal discussions are best left alone.

3. Why would you seperate the performance of a car from its intended purpose??? Does a Charger R/T being used for family purposes, make it any less of a performance car, if the same R/T is used by the Police???

I fail to see your reasoning. I maintain that the Charger R/T is a poor performing, 4 door family saloon regardless if it’s being used as a pursuit vehicle or a grocery getter. I did not state otherwise.

4. I maintain that the situation is hypotheticla to the extent that (1) most people don' t have fast enough cars to outrun a Dodge Charger (2) Most people do pull over when they see blue lights.

That is your disposition, and I can respect that.

If you fail to see that any car will have a disadvantage when from a standstill trying to catch up with a moving vehicle at relative high speed, then I have failed to prove my point, and the basis for our initial discussion cannot be established.

Also, I gave you concrete examples of how people have eluded capture, but you seem intent on calling it hypothetical. It is, in fact, not a hypothetical proposition, but a recount of events that have transpired. Since I don’t want to repeat myself unnecessarily, I am willing to leave it at this.

5. Again I ask you, how many of these fast cars do you think exist on the roads, relative to the general population?? Fewer than you would imagine. And, because they are so few, they are insignificant to be considered in the scenario you layed out. Thus, a reason why I maintain your scenario is hypothetical.

Please see my previous comment regarding hypothetical propositions. Simply because an event happens with a low mean frequency, does not make it hypothetical. In fact, it makes it anything but hypothetical.

Also, it seems like you avoided, ignored or did not read part of my response. I did, in fact, not state that these cars make out the majority. I stated that people have been outrunning police vehicles. You asked what cars. I gave you the answer.

6. How anyone can miss the really bright blue lights behind them, leaves me wondering. I am not saying it does no happen, but, it raises questions about the driver's competence on the highway.

Again, it seems like you have not read nor understood the situation I have been trying to describe. I do apologize for not being able to make it any clearer. As I’m afraid I cannot find the means to do so, I am willing to leave it at this.

[G35COUPE]

Part 2/3

If we're talking about a plain old stock Charger R/T, I believe it will do an estimated low to mid 14 second quarter mile, and a low 14 only under excellent conditions. With bolt-ons it might just dip into the 13s. That, to me, is horribly slow, and it doesn’t impress me.






Actually, this one I would like to give to the 370Z. The ones I've seen on the track have been faster than the GTs on the day. I really do like the Zs. They're fun, little cars on a well engineered platform.




All the C6's -- be they 2005-2007 LS2 motored or 2008 and up LS3 motored -- are comfortable 12 second cars, and a step up from the SRT8. They are all faster, and I'm glad you provide the reason for this yourself. The SRT8s are pigs, and they suffer badly for it. They are not insanely fast by any means.

Also, thank you for explaining what power to weight ratio is.




I agree. It depends on the MY of the 350Z. I have still seen faster quarters out of late MY, mildly tuned 350Zs on my track, than I have out of the SRT8s.

1. Your comments clearly show that you are mixing up track racing with drag racing. You mention 13s and 14s, which are drag race numbers, and then you suggest that the cars posted, will dust the Dodge R/T. Again, your drag numbers are suspect. And be specific about whether you are discussing track performance versus drag perofrmance. I beleive cop chases are more in line with drag performance as they generally occur in straight lines than they do in windy/twisty conditions as on a track. So, the list you provided lends no credibility to your argument. I, on the other hand, have run a Charger R/T on drag and on track, and the results are entirely differrent. Search for one of my write ups i did on this on one of the threads.

2. Sorry if you considered my tone disrespectful. I meant exactly what I said, and I stand by them. Wasn't meant to be disrespectful.

3. Thanks for clarifying the "Mexico" phrase. I have never heard of it before in any online auto forum. May be that is what other online auto forums call "street racing". Perhaps, using terms that we all understand could be helpful. If I haven't heard these terms befor, then am i living under a rock or what?

4. You misunderstood the heirachy I presented. Go back and read my comments again. I said that the Z06 and Ford GT 500, are faster than the GTO and SRT-8, which in turn are faster than the Charger R/T. My intent was not to lump the R/T and SRT-8 into one category, even if it appears that way to you. I didn't even refer to engine displacement as a significant factor. I just simply threw it in there.

5. Our discussion was originally based on street cars that can outrun the SHP. Unfortunately, you were the one that brought up the issue of exotic cars, which IMHO, does not fit into this argument. I have repeatedly asked you to provide me the name of the regular street car that can outrun a Dodge Charger R/T and you have not been able to do so, without bringing up one exotic car after another, as an example. So, those vidoes are baseless as a matter of the discussion we are having. I personally don't care about having 100,000 horsepower in a car, if that horsepower cannot be converted into a real track racing win. Again, you continue to confuse drag racing with track racing. They are different disciplines of the racing world. Drag racing requires lots of torque and even horsepower. Track racing would require much less of that.

5. I have been on a pseudo track for so long as to realize that the best track cars are the ones that can come N/A or a detuned forced induction application car with the right sets of suspension and handling components. Thats why I am mostly an NA guy. And most street cars are NA, and most cars cops deal with, are NA.

6. Again, your comments are highly doubtful. On a dragstrip, all you mostly need is torque, on the low end, and on a race track, all you want is top end horsepower. An S2000, while lighter than a Dodge Charger, has little or no torque for its size. All it has giong for it, is its high revving engine to get the top end horsepower it needs to stay competitive. It is essentially a track car and not a drag car. Again, you continue to mix up drag racing with track racing. The Dodge Charger R/T has more than aenough torque to soundly defeat a 350z or an S2000, which both are track cars, unlike the Charger R/T, which is a drag car. Police need drag cars and not track cars since their chases are mostly straightline than they are chases on twisty and windy roads.

7. My car is a G-35 Coupe and it also has Variable Valve timing and yet it produces a very decent amount of torque in the low to mid range. The VQ35 DE engoine is known for this. But somehow, this torque ability got missing in the S2000 engine, which is its achilles hill. So, i am not sure why you brought this into the discussion. It does not lend credibility to your argument, you know. What the heck does MEP have to with anything we are discussing?? By the way, Toyota had to recall tons of their engines that had oil sludge issues. So, Toyota engines so far, has not had the best credibility.

8. The SRT-8 and R/Ts are drag cars. All they need is plenty of torque, and they have tons of it, which allows them to catapult their massive weights on a straight line fairly easily. They both have at least 300 - 360 ft-pounds of torque which makes the S2000 and 350 Z torque levels, seem like child's play. Once again, the R/T and SRT-8 are basically drag cars and not track cars. Their handling is certianly not up to par on a track as the S2000 or 350Z. I know because I have tried them.

9. Again, you claim about the Z running neck to neck with an SRT-8 remains questionable. Don't forget that the magazines track relatively new cars, which incidentally, produce worse performance numbers than a car that has been broken in, with time. So, you can't necessarily go by those numbers. the same issue can be identified with mpg as well. A broken in car will provide better mpg than when it was new.

[G35COUPE]

Part 3/3



First off, it doesn't sound like you know the full story of the Cobalt SS. It came with a roots style Eaton blower first, but when GM's contract with Eaton ran out, they introduced the turbocharged version.

Secondly, on the track most cars launch at an RPM that is in the beginning of the power band with the power adder of choice. This is also where 2-step launch controls and WOT -- or Wide Open Throttle -- shift boxes come into play so as to not lose boost.

As for turbo vs. supercharger, knowing what I know now, having driven multiple forced induction high performance cars, and having built a supercharged car myself, I would go for a turbo -- provided I had a lower end that could cope with the high boost levels. On a street car the power potential of a turbo setup is simply bigger than that of a blower.

Also, I am not quite sure where in my post you see me wanting an SRT4. I want neither Skittle nor Cobalt. In my experience they break down too easily once they get proper fast, eg. 11 second or faster quartermile, and I am honestly not a fan of them from a daily driven performance car point of view. What I did say in my previous comment, was that I would be more worried in the staging lanes, if I were to run against a car that had an SRT4 badge on the on the trunk, than one that said SRT8. And I stand by that comment.

Lastly, I am not sure what you mean by "And by Turbo, in the Dodge SRT-4, do you mean stage 1 turbo??" I have not made any direct reference to the SRT4's turbo, or the capabilities of the car with a turbo swap.



You seem to think highly of the Cobalts, and I will gladly admit to them having the potential of becoming nasty little buggers once built, but we still see faster Skittles than Cobalts. I cannot say why, but it seems to be the platform of choice for FWD racers that don’t want a Civic. Also, I am glad that you acknowledge there is nothing special about a stock Skittle. That warms my heart.

I have run both stock turbocharged as well as stock supercharged Cobalt SS cars on the track -- several times -- and I'm sorry to report back that none of them handed me my behind with or without blinking. I may have simply encountered bad drivers and slow cars, but they still didn't impress me all that much. That said I did not run faster than a built, black SS that consistently cut 0.1-0.2 second faster quarters than me. That one was faster than me. Curiously enough, it happened to be a turbo Cobalt. I will give credit where credit is due.

I still stand by that any C6 will be capable of running faster than any dealer installed stage 1, 2 or 3 Cobalt SS/Sport. The C6 bone stock is a mid to high 12 second car with even a bad driver.




I did not comment on the price. I did not state that the SRT8 was the same price. I can only say that when I was looking at the cars mentioned, it didn't matter much to me if it was plus or minus $10k. If you go out to buy a performance car that is faster than your average family econobox GTI-R-whatnot, price is secondary and not a deciding factor. I also acknowledge that this is not the case for all people.



While I certainly can and will agree with you on the new Camaro being slower than anticipated, I would not call it a "complete slouch". The Camaro SS has begun running 12's in the hands of normal people, and they are certainly faster stock for stock than the Mustang GT and the 370Z.

That the new cars are disappointingly heavy is something I myself have stated on these boards several times, but again, I will give credit where credit is due. I may not like the 2010 Camaros styling or heavy platform, but it is still a faster car in a straight line than many, if not all, of its stock competitors.




That is perfectly okay, and I fully respect your opinions on the Infinitis and Nissans. Of the American cars mentioned, save for the Cobalt and SRT4, I have had the pleasure of having had a few of them in my possession. This is part of the reason why I am less than impressed with the Charger SRT8. To me it’s a nice road trip vehicle, and not a performance sedan.



This is not an “under almost any condition”. Please reread my previous post, as it seems you have not understood my point. I do not wish to repeat myself.

The only situation that I know of in which the SHP cars have been outrun, is if they are either travelling in the opposite direction or parked on the median or the side of the Interstate or highway.

To put it frankly, yes, these cars are common in my circle of friends and acquaintances. Again, doubt all you want, it is a natural human response, but I have nothing to gain by appearing dishonest - especially not on this board where I've come to respect the sober tone and people's opinion greatly.

As for convincing you, I honestly don't feel the need to.

To round this off, I would again like to focus on my original statement



I stand by that. The SHP and local PD Chargers are still being outrun in the situations described, and the SRT8 is still an underpowered pig of a muscle car.

If you think any of the Chargers have "insane acceleration", you have not been in a fast car. If you ever find yourself in the central NC area, I will gladly take you out in my car that, while still several hundred pounds lighter than the Charger SRT8, currently puts down more hp on the rear wheels than the SRT8 is rated at the flywheel. My car is considered slow compared to what else is running around.

1. I am not going to belabor this post. I did not intend to go into the history of any car. I am not a historian. However, I am not convinced that the R/T is outperformed by daily drivers on our streets, which barely produce 200 horsepower. While the circle of friends you have, may have expensive and exotic cars, people on that level don't usually run from the law, when they can fight the ticket that comes from the law, fairly easily in court, since they have the means to do so. Why go to jail by running and then lose out on driving your nice car?? Those who run are few and far between, and so small to be considered an real threat to the performance of a Charger R/T. And that my argument. The cars you listed are not owned by many, even if you beleive so.

[Rasmus]

1. Your comments clearly show that you are mixing up track racing with drag racing. You mention 13s and 14s, which are drag race numbers, and then you suggest that the cars posted, will dust the Dodge R/T. Again, your drag numbers are suspect. And be specific about whether you are discussing track performance versus drag perofrmance. I beleive cop chases are more in line with drag performance as they generally occur in straight lines than they do in windy/twisty conditions as on a track. So, the list you provided lends no credibility to your argument. I, on the other hand, have run a Charger R/T on drag and on track, and the results are entirely differrent. Search for one of my write ups i did on this on one of the threads.

I thought it painfully obvious that my numbers were all about quarter mile performance, as that is what had the most relevance in the initial discussion.

I am also more than willing to accept that we have various definitions of the term “track”. Around here we only have drag strips, hence the term is only used for that. Had we had circuit tracks, I would have differentiated.

Apart from that I obviously do agree. Police pursuits are more about straight line acceleration than corner carving capabilities.

2. Sorry if you considered my tone disrespectful. I meant exactly what I said, and I stand by them. Wasn't meant to be disrespectful.

I accept, and thank you.

3. Thanks for clarifying the "Mexico" phrase. I have never heard of it before in any online auto forum. May be that is what other online auto forums call "street racing". Perhaps, using terms that we all understand could be helpful. If I haven't heard these terms befor, then am i living under a rock or what?

Mexico racing is more than simple street racing. The crowds are different. The cars are different.

Terms are to be explained and understood. I am sure you know some that I haven’t heard of.

Your living quarters I do not care about.

4. You misunderstood the heirachy I presented. Go back and read my comments again. I said that the Z06 and Ford GT 500, are faster than the GTO and SRT-8, which in turn are faster than the Charger R/T. My intent was not to lump the R/T and SRT-8 into one category, even if it appears that way to you. I didn't even refer to engine displacement as a significant factor. I just simply threw it in there.

I do not believe I misunderstood you, but I might be mistaken. Let me elaborate. By ‘hierarchy’ I meant performance wise with regards to track, ie. drag strip, performance, in which case – given the cars presented, ie. Z06, Mustang GT500, and GTO – the Chargers fall to the bottom.

5. Our discussion was originally based on street cars that can outrun the SHP. Unfortunately, you were the one that brought up the issue of exotic cars, which IMHO, does not fit into this argument. I have repeatedly asked you to provide me the name of the regular street car that can outrun a Dodge Charger R/T and you have not been able to do so, without bringing up one exotic car after another, as an example. So, those vidoes are baseless as a matter of the discussion we are having. I personally don't care about having 100,000 horsepower in a car, if that horsepower cannot be converted into a real track racing win. Again, you continue to confuse drag racing with track racing. They are different disciplines of the racing world. Drag racing requires lots of torque and even horsepower. Track racing would require much less of that.

Our definition of exotic is what divides us. I do not view a Z06 as an exotic. I do not view a Mustang GT500 as an exotic either. These are common daily drivers in my world.

My preposition for joining this initial debate was to draw attention to the real life situations an SHP Charger R/T has to deal with, in which case it doesn’t matter where the offending vehicle is from, where it’s built, how it’s running or if it’s modified or not. The SHP has to deal with these cars, since this is what they’re up against here.

If you are intent on limiting the cars capable of outrunning the SHP to stock production cars, then you are not dealing with the reality of the situation. Of course, it is up to you, but I cannot add to that discussion other than what I already have, so I am willing to leave it at that.

I say again, the SHP Charger R/Ts are being outrun here, and I have given everybody here good examples of the types of vehicles that are and have been outrunning them.

5. I have been on a pseudo track for so long as to realize that the best track cars are the ones that can come N/A or a detuned forced induction application car with the right sets of suspension and handling components. Thats why I am mostly an NA guy. And most street cars are NA, and most cars cops deal with, are NA.

That is good, and I, having spent most of my childhood on European circuits, would most of the time choose an NA car for this purpose.

Turbo cars do have their merits, eg. Formula 1 seasons ‘77/’78 through ‘88 where turbo cars dominated the naturally aspirated cars.

6. Again, your comments are highly doubtful. On a dragstrip, all you mostly need is torque, on the low end, and on a race track, all you want is top end horsepower. An S2000, while lighter than a Dodge Charger, has little or no torque for its size. All it has giong for it, is its high revving engine to get the top end horsepower it needs to stay competitive. It is essentially a track car and not a drag car. Again, you continue to mix up drag racing with track racing. The Dodge Charger R/T has more than aenough torque to soundly defeat a 350z or an S2000, which both are track cars, unlike the Charger R/T, which is a drag car. Police need drag cars and not track cars since their chases are mostly straightline than they are chases on twisty and windy roads.

Because this discussion initially was about cars capable of outrunning police vehicles, of course straight line performance is vital. As such, the performance numbers in my previous posts should be on performance on a drag strip.

You are, of course, free to believe that an R/T is a fast car on the track, ie. drag strip. I will continue to recount the track, ie. drag strip, runs against Charger and Challenger R/Ts, and of the Nissan 350Z and 370Zs. Please refer to my previous post. My numbers are based on my experience from the track, ie. drag strip.

7. My car is a G-35 Coupe and it also has Variable Valve timing and yet it produces a very decent amount of torque in the low to mid range. The VQ35 DE engoine is known for this. But somehow, this torque ability got missing in the S2000 engine, which is its achilles hill. So, i am not sure why you brought this into the discussion. It does not lend credibility to your argument, you know. What the heck does MEP have to with anything we are discussing?? By the way, Toyota had to recall tons of their engines that had oil sludge issues. So, Toyota engines so far, has not had the best credibility.

I do believe the low torque of a Honda VTEC motor was brought into this discussion by you.

As a means of explaining to you that torque is not everything, I offered the typical example of a Formula 1 engine. In this case Toyota’s engine for the 2006 season.

However, since this is only part of the discussion on a peripheral level, I will leave it at that.

8. The SRT-8 and R/Ts are drag cars. All they need is plenty of torque, and they have tons of it, which allows them to catapult their massive weights on a straight line fairly easily. They both have at least 300 - 360 ft-pounds of torque which makes the S2000 and 350 Z torque levels, seem like child's play. Once again, the R/T and SRT-8 are basically drag cars and not track cars. Their handling is certianly not up to par on a track as the S2000 or 350Z. I know because I have tried them.

Again, our definition of a drag car differs, and I am willing to leave it at that. The Chargers are not drag cars in my book. They are family cars. With regards to torqur they do not, by my definition, have “tons of it”. Again, our definitions differ, and I accept that.

Also, they have horrible circuit track skills, but it seems we agree on that one.

9. Again, you claim about the Z running neck to neck with an SRT-8 remains questionable. Don't forget that the magazines track relatively new cars, which incidentally, produce worse performance numbers than a car that has been broken in, with time. So, you can't necessarily go by those numbers. the same issue can be identified with mpg as well. A broken in car will provide better mpg than when it was new.

My numbers, again, are not merely based on paper racing. If you recall, I am an opponent of paper racing. I have my experience from the track – drag strip, not circuit track -- which is what I use to base my opinions on.

As for the specific example of late MY 350Z vs. SRT8; I used to have a TorRed Charger SRT8 in possession if only briefly. I also took this car to the track, ie. drag strip, on a couple of occasions, and I ran it against different street cars. I have not owned a 350Z, however I have driven a friend's late MY 350Z on the track, ie. drag strip. The Z was and still is faster on a track, ie. track in general be that circuit or drag.

From the best of my knowledge, and from my relatively considerable experience from straight line drag racing, the numbers I have provided on the Chargers are correct. You are, of course, free to question them. That is your prerogative.

[Rasmus]

1. I am not going to belabor this post. I did not intend to go into the history of any car. I am not a historian. However, I am not convinced that the R/T is outperformed by daily drivers on our streets, which barely produce 200 horsepower. While the circle of friends you have, may have expensive and exotic cars, people on that level don't usually run from the law, when they can fight the ticket that comes from the law, fairly easily in court, since they have the means to do so. Why go to jail by running and then lose out on driving your nice car?? Those who run are few and far between, and so small to be considered an real threat to the performance of a Charger R/T. And that my argument. The cars you listed are not owned by many, even if you beleive so.

I would again like to point out, that it doesn't matter if it's a Charger R/T, SRT8 or SRT10. It's all in the initial gap that the LEO in pursuit has to make up, in which case you don't need a, by your definition, exotic car.

Your view on why to run is one we share. I do not believe it worth the effort, and I while I have in the past when I was young and reckless in Europe, I would not run again. Neither would my friends. Others would.

No, it is true, not that many people have fast cars like the ones I posted, but many of my friends do. I do not believe I stated anything but that. I have been in a most fortunate situation that allowed me to pursue my interest in cars on a level most can't. I am not hiding that fact, although I seldom wish to talk about it. You asked me if the cars I described were common. In my everyday life, yes, they are.

If you will allow me to do so, I will leave this discussion about police pursuit vehicles and fast cars, and strike it down as a difference in perspective.

[NSXType-R]

Can't say for the NIssan. but having driven one there is NO way a Prius coudl ever be used for pursuit.
Skinny tyres, weight in all the wrong places ?
It woudl be troubled trying to d a PIT maneouver on a granny on a buggy

Nah, there's no way the Nissan can be a pursuit car. It just has the V6.

when i drive 95 thru NC, i use my V1 and catch nothing. the roads are sooo horrible doing 150 is incredibly dangerous on those bumpy roads.

prius is only used by traffic enforcemnt agents, not NYPD cops

And I think traffic enforcement is under the NYPD, although yeah, they don't use Priuses for everyday police use, only traffic.

Here's a NY Times article that I found amusing- the officers are finding the hybrid cars' seats are too small.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/30/ny...l?ref=nyregion

[G35COUPE]

I would again like to point out, that it doesn't matter if it's a Charger R/T, SRT8 or SRT10. It's all in the initial gap that the LEO in pursuit has to make up, in which case you don't need a, by your definition, exotic car.

Your view on why to run is one we share. I do not believe it worth the effort, and I while I have in the past when I was young and reckless in Europe, I would not run again. Neither would my friends. Others would.

No, it is true, not that many people have fast cars like the ones I posted, but many of my friends do. I do not believe I stated anything but that. I have been in a most fortunate situation that allowed me to pursue my interest in cars on a level most can't. I am not hiding that fact, although I seldom wish to talk about it. You asked me if the cars I described were common. In my everyday life, yes, they are.

If you will allow me to do so, I will leave this discussion about police pursuit vehicles and fast cars, and strike it down as a difference in perspective.

1. Unfortunately, the vast majority of cars on US highways, are not performance cars that can really outrun a Dodge Charger R/T. However, in the last 10 years, more better performing stree cars than the typical Police Crown Victoria's can be found on our roads. So, it was only logical for them to upgrade their cars to cheap and affordable power vehicle. And, unfortunately, the circle of friends you have that own exotic cars, are not a reflection of the general population in the USA. And, this is a fact.

As a poor man that i am, i think I am in a better position to know what is out there in terms of what other poor people drive on a daily basis, than you may realize, don't you think?

2. I agree completely with you and I see why our discussion got lengthened---our definition of exotic cars are different. I can't afford a Z06---too much money and expense to maintain. More than 50% of the US population cannot aford one. So, to that end, its an exotic car in our eyes.

[Rasmus]

1. Unfortunately, the vast majority of cars on US highways, are not performance cars that can really outrun a Dodge Charger R/T. However, in the last 10 years, more better performing stree cars than the typical Police Crown Victoria's can be found on our roads. So, it was only logical for them to upgrade their cars to cheap and affordable power vehicle. And, unfortunately, the circle of friends you have that own exotic cars, are not a reflection of the general population in the USA. And, this is a fact. So, why even engage in this discussion since those around you are not the norm on the roads???????????

As a poor man that i am, i think I am in a better position to know what is out there in terms of what other poor people drive on a daily basis, than you do, don't you think?

Again, I do not disagree with you. The Crown Vics are horrible tanks according to the Officers I know on a personal basis. They welcome the new Chargers as being durable, more comfortable, and more spacious. They do not necessarily view them as performance cars, as is evident by the fact the local PDs only buy the SEs. The R/Ts have bette performance relative to the SEs, but even the Officers acknowledge that they can't keep up with the majority of high speed offenders. Clearly the Charger has other merits than its -- all things considered -- lackluster performance that makes it a worth wile investment for the PDs.

The reason for joining in on the conversation was to offer an insight in what real life situations the LEOs are being put in when it comes to high speed pursuits, of which I have some 2nd party experience. Obviously only a few number of total cars out there are capable of up to 180mph speeds, but the ratio of fast cars to normal cars that are making successful getaways are clearly higher than the ratio of fast to normal on the street.

If any given police department in any given country is taking new, faster performance cars in use, eg. the Lexus IS-F in Hull or the Z06 here in Wake County, the opposition must be evaluated. With regards to this area, I have given you just that. This is what the LEOs are up against. This is why the Charger R/Ts are losing out. This is why Wake PD chose to put an undercover Z06 into active duty.

Also, the actual getaways I used as examples were done by built Terminator Cobras, the turn key cost of which for each current owner being below $30k.

As for your final statement, I clearly resent that. Your proposition is ludicrous, and I find it utterly ignorant. You are, of course, entitled to your prepositions, faulty as they may be.

[G35COUPE]

Again, I do not disagree with you. The Crown Vics are horrible tanks according to the Officers I know on a personal basis. They welcome the new Chargers as being durable, more comfortable, and more spacious. They do not necessarily view them as performance cars, as is evident by the fact the local PDs only buy the SEs. The R/Ts have bette performance relative to the SEs, but even the Officers acknowledge that they can't keep up with the majority of high speed offenders. Clearly the Charger has other merits than its -- all things considered -- lackluster performance that makes it a worth wile investment for the PDs.

The reason for joining in on the conversation was to offer an insight in what real life situations the LEOs are being put in when it comes to high speed pursuits, of which I have some 2nd party experience. Obviously only a few number of total cars out there are capable of up to 180mph speeds, but the ratio of fast cars to normal cars that are making successful getaways are clearly higher than the ratio of fast to normal on the street.

If any given police department in any given country is taking new, faster performance cars in use, eg. the Lexus IS-F in Hull or the Z06 here in Wake County, the opposition must be evaluated. With regards to this area, I have given you just that. This is what the LEOs are up against. This is why the Charger R/Ts are losing out. This is why Wake PD chose to put an undercover Z06 into active duty.

Also, the actual getaways I used as examples were done by built Terminator Cobras, the turn key cost of which for each current owner being below $30k.

As for your final statement, I clearly resent that. Your proposition is ludicrous, and I find it utterly ignorant. You are, of course, entitled to your prepositions, faulty as they may be.

1. I find your comment, "They do not necessarily view them as performance cars, as is evident by the fact the local PDs only buy the SEs. .......... but even the Officers acknowledge that they can't keep up with the majority of high speed offenders", very spurious. I don't know why any officer would reveal such a position or detail to anyone, about their tribulations with speedsters. Is the PD suggesting that they are loosing the battle on the highways or that if you have a fast enough car, then you are home free from being pulled over if caught speeding, and thus, never having to worry about being served a citation???

Secondly,

2. Once again, I meant exactly what i said, however ignorant as you might find it. It takes a poor man to know the plight of another poor man. I doubt Bill Gates understands or cares to understand the needs of a vagabond who may sleep underneath a cardboard box every night. The fact here is that the rich, which you have suggested to us, are not in a position to know what ails or propels the masses. This is not their fault at all. We are all victims of our immediate and past environment. If you know of any rich person who understands the plight of a poor man, then, tell me. Remember, you have not yet produced a single daily driver that is affordable by the masses which can smoke the Dodge R/T or escape cops with ease. S2000 and 350z wil not run too far from a cop with a Dodge Charger R/T even if the 350Z is moving and the Charger pursues it from a stand still.

3. You continue to present these exotic cars as the norm on the highways. They are not. Anyone capable of installing an after-market turbo or supercharger on an already powerful engine as a 350z, isn't the common man. They are rich and their upgraded car is technically an exotic car. This is my opinion.

[cmcpokey]

3. You continue to present these exotic cars as the norm on the highways. They are not. Anyone capable of installing an after-market turbo or supercharger on an already powerful engine as a 350z, isn't the common man. They are rich and their upgraded car is technically an exotic car. This is my opinion.

and this is where you fail. with 10 grand you can build a very fast mustang or camaro that can outrun a cop car. hell even the ricer civics can do 140+. the guys that have cars like this are the ones that will be driving excess speeds, and also these are the same guys that will run... grandmothers in their lincoln are not who the cops are worried about.

[Rasmus]

1. I find your comment, "They do not necessarily view them as performance cars, as is evident by the fact the local PDs only buy the SEs. .......... but even the Officers acknowledge that they can't keep up with the majority of high speed offenders", very spurious. I don't know why any officer would reveal such a position or detail to anyone, about their tribulations with speedsters. Is the PD suggesting that they are loosing the battle on the highways or that if you have a fast enough car, then you are home free from being pulled over if caught speeding, and thus, never having to worry about being served a citation???

Yes, they are saying they are not able to keep up with some cars, hence the need for the Z06 that are now being used. I count some LEOs as friends, and I associate with them on a private basis.

Secondly,

2. Once again, I meant exactly what i said, however ignorant as you might find it. It takes a poor man to know the plight of another poor man. I doubt Bill Gates understands or cares to understand the needs of a vagabond who may sleep underneath a cardboard box every night. The fact here is that the rich, which you have suggested to us, are not in a position to know what ails or propels the masses. This is not their fault at all. We are all victims of our immediate and past environment. If you know of any rich person who understands the plight of a poor man, then, tell me.

I do not like to address my own circumstances, but I would let you know that I come from a poor yet loving family. I have paid my dues, and I have become successful where others have not. I have given more than I have received, and I will continue to do so till the day they lay me to rest in the same ground that the hobo lies in.

Your feeble attempts at lecturing, and general grasp of the world that you display is naïve at best. You bear the mark of inexperience, and I am not seeking to offend you.

Remember, you have not yet produced a single daily driver that is affordable by the masses which can smoke the Dodge R/T or escape cops with ease. S2000 and 350z wil not run too far from a cop with a Dodge Charger R/T even if the 350Z is moving and the Charger pursues it from a stand still.

As you have ignored my previous posts, I will refer you back to them. I see no point in repeating myself.

3. You continue to present these exotic cars as the norm on the highways. They are not. Anyone capable of installing an after-market turbo or supercharger on an already powerful engine as a 350z, isn't the common man. They are rich and their upgraded car is technically an exotic car. This is my opinion.

I present them not as the norm. I present them as examples. Another example of you continuously ignoring the response while repeatedly focusing on your message.

Thank you for not considering me a common man, although that is what I am. If you wish to think of my supercharged Mustang GT as exotic, then that is your choice.

--

With this I will leave this discussion. Arguing on the internet is seldom fruitful, and I see no point in continuing under these circumstances.

Have a good day, Sir.