The new Vauxhall VXR8

[clutch-monkey]

SS-V, $3 grand on mafless tune/OTR/exhaust, 5 grand for wheels, ~2k for suspension, then spend change from an M3 on another 964 and trailer to match

job done

[fpv_gtho]

Of course that defeats the point as youve got no warranty now

[clutch-monkey]

i was under the impression the warranty wasn't bothered by light mods?

[fpv_gtho]

It really depends on your dealer, what you break, and yeah how heavy the mods.

[ozzycarnut]

I read the same article. It has to be said that Wheels only gave the gong to the locals on a value for money basis. There were two separate comparisons. These were the BMW M3 v Audi RS5 v Mercedes C63 and the Holden Commodore VE SS-V v HSV Clubsport R8 v FPV Falcon GS.
Their conclusion exactly quoted is as follows:"But what about the 'bigger picture' question posed by this month's cover? No one here is going to argue that these three (HSV Clubsport R8, Holden Commodore SS-V, FPV Falcon GS) can match the blend of raw speed, dynamic deftness and general polish provided by the three premium German V8s. But at around a third of the price, the value case is not persuasive, it's compelling. Word's best, in fact".

Let's do the comparison ourselves.
A Holden Commodore VE SS-V (the cheapest car of the six) costs AU$55,290.
An BMW M3 (the winner of the Euro V8s comparison) costs AU$165,600.

So, there here are three questions which can asked.
1. If the keys to both the Holden and the BMW were on the table, and you could take which ever one you liked, which one would you grab? Most of us would answer: "the BMW".
2. Is the BMW really 3 times better than the Holden? Any logical conclusion would have to be "NO". The Holden is probably 75% as good as the BMW, but at 1/3rd the price. So its the obvious value winner, even if depreciation is then added to the mix. Also, if you bought the Holden instead of the BMW on this basis, think what you could do with $100K you saved. Deposit on a house. Or purchase several interesting performance or classic used cars and use the Holden as a daily driver.
3. Should the Holden even be compared with the BMW and vice versa? Not really. They are in very different sectors of the market and are not direct competitors. Well, there is the interesting value question. Magazines and enthusiasts forums will always raise this. But the Holden's direct competition comes from FPV in the form of the FPV Falcon GS. Other sports sedans around the same price as the Holden include the Ford Falcon FG XR6 Turbo. There is the Subaru Liberty GT at AU$52K, which is a direct competitor and could even be judged the better car. There are no other direct competitors. If Nissan chose to sell the Skyline or Toyota chose to sell the Chaser in Australia, then they would be direct competitors. But there are no European sports sedan rivals available at AU$55K. You have to go up to the VW Passat R36, which at AU$65K is another ten grand. However, the VW is totally outgunned in a straight line by the Holden and it would be a close run thing for dynamics. Quality would go to the VW. Personally, I like the R36, so I'll understand if you want to argue the Passat is the better car.
I'm sure you could find a whole variety of used European sports sedans at this price, but one then has to ask the new versus used question. That's a question that each person can only answer for themselves. I think I already know your answer. Personally, if spending AU$55K on a car, I'd prefer a new car. Though I'd probably go for an executive saloon rather than a sports sedan at this price point.

Yes, $63K is good buying for an S-Class Merc. If you are one of those that is willing to pay that sort of money on a used car - which is likely to be outside the warranty period and may even have done enough kms to be ready to provide some major headaches. This would be a heart vs head choice - especially given there are some excellent new cars available for $63K.

I think one must remember with all these arguments that;
a) someone able to afford a $20K car is not going to care how much better a $40K or $120K or whatever car is - simply because they can only afford the $20K car. The comparisons with the more expensive car are irrevelant. Just like if I can only afford $20 for jeans, I don't care how much better the $200 jeans are.
b) oranges should be compared with oranges. The base Falcons and Commodores should not be compared with BMW 5-series or Audi A6s. The logical competition of the Falcon XR6 NA or Commodore SV6 are the Nissan Maxima, Mazda6, Subaru Liberty, Honda Accord Euro & V6, Toyota Camry & Aurion, VW Passat and Ford Mondeo. All - including the Falcon and Commodore - are very good cars for the price and they are all techonologically on a par, so choose your favourite and you'll be happy with it. Its difficult to make an argument that any are vastly superior to the others in any aspect.
The executive range Fords and Holdens - the Calais V V8 and Falcon G6E Turbo - can be compared with the Skoda Superb and other mid-sized premium and executive cars. I like the Superb but would lust after the performance of the Falcon. Head would probably win and I'd get the Superb, but lets not say the Calais and Falcon and vastly inferior - they aren't.

i think my original issue has been lost in translation somewhere along the way, so i will refresh a bit .....

[a portion selected from the original thread post]

"Priced at £49,500 (inc. 20 per cent VAT) and available to order from late December 2010, the new VXR8 is now based on HSV E3 GTS model, just launched in Australia, the previous VXR8 representing the old version of the lower-spec ClubSport R8. That means it still undercuts full-size super saloons like the Audi RS6, Jaguar XFR and Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG by between £13k and £29k, and even performance saloons from the class below, such as the BMW M3 and Mercedes C63 AMG."

thats what i have an issue with. comparing itself to the likes of an m3, c63, rs6, xfr, e63, but there are a few here that cry foul when i raise a few points over where the vxr8 is lacking and can hardly be compared to the above mentioned cars. really, whoopy do that the vxr8 is $50k and stomps the germans for value, that i would say would be its only achievement. i guess a fair comparison is keeping it to a pricepoint comparison of similarly priced cars. which i think wheels failed to do. the fpv equivalant and/or xr6 turbo, perhaps also the subaru liberty gt and maybe the trd camry. this would be a better comparison.

noone here can convince me that a vxr8 is superior to a c63, as it is simply not true. a c63 eats hsv's and fpv's for breakfast lunch and dinner, not only in the performance arena, but makes them look like rickshaws in the quality department also. even when compared to hsv's grange (the full blown luxo barge) the c63 doesnt have anything to worry about. but some will argue yes, but it is also however-many-thousand-dollars dearer than the vxr8, which i will respond with, yeah, so the vxr8 shouldnt have been compared to the likes of a c63 in the first place. refer to the original post.

"b) oranges should be compared with oranges. The base Falcons and Commodores should not be compared with BMW 5-series or Audi A6s. "

exactly, which is why i raised my concerns.

whether or not an m3 is around $110k better than an ss is debatable. for my money, i would say it is not. i would say it is $50k or $70k better. the ss lacks the polish of the m3. if i was in the market for a skid mobile, sure, a 3 - 5 year old ss would do nicely for about $15k. the issue though is pretty much everything else. who is going to buy an ss when you are ready to sell that they obviously know has been cained harder than a racehorse? not to mention fuel consumption issues and feeling like a bogan in an ss like every other bogan in an ss. thats why i guess i have never really seen the point in v8 falcons and commodores. sure they have their place, but if you start nutting out the numbers and considering one as a potential purchase, and you also want a daily driver, you would have to have rocks in your head to consider one over something like a liberty gt that brings resale, quality and fuel economy to the party as well.

the vw 'r' series, r32 golf, r36 passat, r35 toureg get me hot and bothered. you pay a premium for them, like the hsv's over the 'common' fare, but you get alot of car for your dough. a bloke had an r32 golf up the road from me where i used to live, and yeah, i used to get a boner every time he drove past. this thing was pampered to within an inch of its life, an approx 2005/2006, went like a stabbed cat.

i would also like to point out that theres quite a few people here having a cry over someone, not unlike myself, suggesting that there are, god forbid, better cars in the world than holden and ford stuff, either priced on par or otherwise. i think its healthy to question whether holden and ford stack up, and for my money, they dont. so cry all you like, holden and ford are only too happy to take your money, they couldnt give a rats arse about your resale, matter of fact, i would say they would prefer that you lose as much as possible so you have to come back to purchase a car sooner.

[ozzycarnut]

SS-V, $3 grand on mafless tune/OTR/exhaust, 5 grand for wheels, ~2k for suspension, then spend change from an M3 on another 964 and trailer to match

job done

as fpv pointed out, you might as well blow your nose on your warranty, as it might improve its worth. and resale? whos gonna buy an ss thats been chipped, turboed/supercharged, has 20 inch spinners and neons etc? certainly noone that i know. the only thing missing when i see a car ad like this is 'i have been doing very smokey burnouts for the last year or so, and have now destroyed the clutch and gearbox and need to sell it to wash my hands of it and try and recoup some cash, hence the notation in the description '*** brand new clutch and gearbox just fitted ***'.

[S.O.S]

See i wouldn't buy the ssv to begin with. id be much more happier with an sv6 or calais v6.

but since this isn't that thread. i'd go the ssv from these blokes keep factory warranty.
Race Sport SS Commodore RS400 T & RS350 – Car Reviews, News & Advice - CarPoint Australia

[fpv_gtho]

That stuff is still questionable on the warranty side. As the article says, how the full warranty works is Holden takes care of one half, the dealer organising it takes car of the other half, similar to the Walkinshaw kits. Theres been people who have blown engines and the like and had it all fixed no problem but theres also people who have done less and had the dealer turn their back on them because neither they or Holden want to take responsibility.

[Badsight]

mmm.... maybe in the fwd models, but the awd's stick to the road like the proverbial to a blanket. you are paying a premium obviously for this though.

compared to RWD when its low traction conditions , sure

4wd tho generally increases a cars understeer. 4WD puts the power down better , it doesnt increase the turning potential on its own

[Badsight]

as fpv pointed out, you might as well blow your nose on your warranty, as it might improve its worth. and resale? whos gonna buy an ss thats been chipped, turboed/supercharged, has 20 inch spinners and neons etc? certainly noone that i know. .

who cares about resale when the objective is to have a M3 smasher for $ 80,000 less

tune both to 600 hp , the holden engine is going to be more likely to last. the more complex car will be more likely to fail its driver & leave him hitchiking long term

[ozzycarnut]

who cares about resale when the objective is to have a M3 smasher for $ 80,000 less

tune both to 600 hp , the holden engine is going to be more likely to last. the more complex car will be more likely to fail its driver & leave him hitchiking long term

i suppose if you want to throw your money away you dont worry about resale, hell if you want to go all out and really set your money on fire, lets not get caught up on small stuff like fuel economy either, which when a dinner plate sized turbo or something (supercharger) is hooked up to an ss, it will suck down fuel like its going out of fashion.

sure, if you have $50k to burn, be my guest, go and grab an ss, whack a supercharger on it, do whatever you want to it, no worries with me. for me, i'd rather keep my dough in the bank where its making money, rather than losing it. and you will lose it even faster after modifying it.

[ozzycarnut]

See i wouldn't buy the ssv to begin with. id be much more happier with an sv6 or calais v6.

but since this isn't that thread. i'd go the ssv from these blokes keep factory warranty.
Race Sport SS Commodore RS400 T & RS350 – Car Reviews, News & Advice - CarPoint Australia

thats probably the smarter way of doing it, if you are insisting on a mod'ed ss or something. at least you do have a form of warranty to fall back on. whether you will be bounced back and forth between the dealer and the modifier though is another matter.

"Holden backs everything but the mods and Patterson Cheney covers the rest. But the deal is available nationwide, with a phone call to Melbourne all that's needed should the sheets hit the fan, though to date, and more than 300 happy customers down the track, Race Sport haven't had a single claim."

thats aight.

[clutch-monkey]

as fpv pointed out, you might as well blow your nose on your warranty, as it might improve its worth. and resale? whos gonna buy an ss thats been chipped, turboed/supercharged, has 20 inch spinners and neons etc? certainly noone that i know. the only thing missing when i see a car ad like this is 'i have been doing very smokey burnouts for the last year or so, and have now destroyed the clutch and gearbox and need to sell it to wash my hands of it and try and recoup some cash, hence the notation in the description '*** brand new clutch and gearbox just fitted ***'.

as noted the above mods don't often affect warranty. resale isn't an issue since ostensibly you buy the car for yourself not the next guy, and the above mods do little to resale since the tune alone improves economy and adds hp..
if you're worried about parts breaking there is an abundance available.

[Badsight]

i suppose if you want to throw your money away you dont worry about resale.

well new car buying is a mugs game (unless your so rich you dont have to care)

buying luxury new (bmw m3) is an even bigger mugs game . your in the wrong here dude if your position is "the bmw is better quality so the price dont matter"

your just going to depreciate at a bigger scale , whilst having less reliability at a serious HP level . which the Holden owner can achieve & still be $ 50,000 better off after the work is done

_fifty_thousand_dollars_ spent on a SS would result in the BMW in a seriously further back second place

& the holden owner would still end up with more money in his pocket to spend on the next couple of years motoring

its ok to have a beef against holden & idolise things you think are technically more sophisticated . but to argue the BMW is the better deal money wise is way way off reality

[ozzycarnut]

well new car buying is a mugs game (unless your so rich you dont have to care)

buying luxury new (bmw m3) is an even bigger mugs game . your in the wrong here dude if your position is "the bmw is better quality so the price dont matter"

your just going to depreciate at a bigger scale , whilst having less reliability at a serious HP level . which the Holden owner can achieve & still be $ 50,000 better off after the work is done

_fifty_thousand_dollars_ spent on a SS would result in the BMW in a seriously further back second place

& the holden owner would still end up with more money in his pocket to spend on the next couple of years motoring

its ok to have a beef against holden & idolise things you think are technically more sophisticated . but to argue the BMW is the better deal money wise is way way off reality

i am pretty sure i have been crystal clear about my position, unless i am speaking cantonese? i will slow it down a bit for you ay?

"i think my original issue has been lost in translation somewhere along the way, so i will refresh a bit .....

[a portion selected from the original thread post]

"Priced at £49,500 (inc. 20 per cent VAT) and available to order from late December 2010, the new VXR8 is now based on HSV E3 GTS model, just launched in Australia, the previous VXR8 representing the old version of the lower-spec ClubSport R8. That means it still undercuts full-size super saloons like the Audi RS6, Jaguar XFR and Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG by between £13k and £29k, and even performance saloons from the class below, such as the BMW M3 and Mercedes C63 AMG."

thats what i have an issue with. comparing itself to the likes of an m3, c63, rs6, xfr, e63, but there are a few here that cry foul when i raise a few points over where the vxr8 is lacking and can hardly be compared to the above mentioned cars. really, whoopy do that the vxr8 is $50k and stomps the germans for value, that i would say would be its only achievement."

that seems pretty clear to me, old mates original post comparing the vxr8 to the likes of a c63.

as far as purchasing a car, doing it up and throwing a turbo in it and chipping it etc, i think thats 'a mugs' game.

sure, buying a new german car is for idiots who want to set their money on fire, but as a second hand proposition, they make far more sense. i would take a 2 or 3 year old low kays well looked after mercedes s class over a brand new commodore or ss any day of the week. the original owner has already bled his arse out on it, sure it will depreciate further, but i would say not at the rate of a new commodore/ss. sure, buy an ss, go spend the savings you could have over buying an m3 by doing the douche bag thing with the neons and flame stickers and blow off valve cd playing nice and loud, and whatever else you want to do to it, at the end of the day, its still a turd in a frock, or perhaps a turbocharged turd in a frock with neons and 25 inch spinners. then try and sell it when you are tired of it, see how invalid my views are then.

mentioning things like "_fifty_thousand_dollars_ spent on a SS would result in the BMW in a seriously further back second place" is just stupid. what race are we talking about here? in the coles / woolies car park? or is it the traffic light drag race heroes? i live in the real world mate, with speed cameras, overzealous cops and the like, kids unpredictably crossing roads etc, so unless you live on a race track, i would say your point is completely irrelevant. sure, i can go and get a v8, like every other bogan, spend a bomb on it, and get it cranking out 1000+hp, but in the end, i am only allowed to go as fast as a volvo driver with his beige bowls club hat on the rear parcel shelf.

lastly, i dont think its for you to pass comment on what i discuss, or what i may or may not be 'wrong' about. this is a forum where discussion takes place, i.e. free speech. this isnt about being right or wrong, but offering a different perspective. what you do with that perspective, i.e. dismiss it, print it out and smoke it, or consider it, is entirely your prerogative.