C6 Corvette VS 911 Carrera

[Slicks]

You produce enough humour for UCP with your pointless and now demontrably useless posts
yes, I coudl explain it, why woudl I have asked YOU to if I didnt' know the answers ?
You KEEP forgetting ( or are you just "reading over" it AGAIN ) that I've rallied/raced and tuned these setups.
"loking up crap" - very telling Slicsk, you were being advised to find the truth.
Now you've shown your hand, we all know how little regard you actually have for truth and real knowledge.

Almost as much as you with your oh so cunning jokes.
The point is i dont care, if i wanted to look it up i could, and would, but i dont. Its that simple, they work for the car that they are on and thats all that matters. Do you know exactly how the suns gravitational pull keeps the earth in alignment? Probably, not.. Why, because no one cares, it works and thats all that matters.
Just because i dont know exactly how a transversly mounted leafspring is setup and works doenst mean that im a idiot now. Ive had to correct you on numerous occasions, so what does that say about you? Are you a moron? Certainly not, just because you dont know something doesnt mean your stupid...

NO
Can you draw ?
Draw it out, or make it up with straws.
DO SOMETHING to get an understanding of what your are spouting on about.

I have drawn it, and thats what i came up with...

The "simple" answer for you is that springs require a compliant hanger to absorb the change in legth. THAT hanger introduces 2 more joints which introduce movement which gives less control and is NOT desirable.
Efficient and effective suspension design is about CONTROL, and ideally with the least number of joits and components.

I know that there are 'hangers' connecting the springs. But what are those hangers connect to exacly? Do you know specifically that the vettes suspension is done that way?

Please we need to stop, I'm running out of arse to keep laughing off

So remarkably cunning, your humor just keeps coming, but no one is laughing but you, becuase simply no one cares.

Oh, here we go AGAIN, go back a long way and do NOT "read over" but try to absorb. Cornering G on a simple radius is irrelevant to real world. I've already asid it, you can set a car up to meet good figures on those. Any car. If you want the NUMBERS that's fine, if you want handling on a track/road then it's a start but a long way from final
Please, Slicks, try to increase your knowledge faster than your typing for once

Tell me something, in normal track racing the more grip the car holds the better correct? The better the car grips the faster it is able to(notice i said able) corner right? So the more G forces the better. So Gs do show something, plus why would they even bother recording G forces if they are completely irrelavant?

Put that idea back in the box Slicks, it will be awfully lonely in your brain !!

Oh damn, LMAO
At least I'll fit in the new race seats better with less ass

Do you feel like a bigger person insulting someone? I hope you feel much better about yourself. Your like what 40 now? I think its time to grow up...

[Slicks]

Dont you all just race round ovals or 1/4 mile

Oh charged, what would we do without your input?

[PerfAdv]

Awesome post! Best one I've seen in a long time. You seem to have covered everything that needed to be put forward

Thanks, I thought it kinda clever myself

And by the way, people who blame the drivers of these tests are pretty goddamn supid. There's no automotive journalist out there who wouldn't try just as hard with one car as with any other during the same test. Also, they're hardly to blame for a goddamn split-second 0-60 difference from "the best you've seen"... it's called "conditions" - they change on earth sometimes.

Yes conditions change and that's the crux of this discussion, not 10ths of seconds. Not that the Corvette is better or worse at a particular track but that it can't perform as well under varying conditions because of its design. It has a more basic design and for this reason is less capable at certain tasks.

Example:

Tell me something, in normal track racing the more grip the car holds the better correct? The better the car grips the faster it is able to(notice i said able) corner right? So the more G forces the better. So Gs do show something, plus why would they even bother recording G forces if they are completely irrelavant?

Skidpad G force testing is not the ultimate gauge of how a car will handle the real road. It is a preferred way of comparing because of its repeatability and the ability to control variables, producing consistency between tests on different cars. Variables such as road imperfections, the 'line' used to corner, and how vehicle dynamics(weight transfer) is affected by braking/acceleration are the real test for how a suspension setup will handle the real road/track.

Again the oft repeated statement...it's not that the Corvette is bad handling it's just some cars can handle certain conditions better. To build on an earlier point of agreement. Agreed that in a leafspring suspension, input from road irregularities on one side can affect/upset the other side. This would affect grip to a certain extent. If car 'Y' is not affected with this suspension shortcoming it would be better able to negotiate corners that upset a leafspring setup. Grip affects how well a car can brake, accelerate and change direction, how well it can go around a corner. Is the Corvette uncompetitive? Not by a long shot, as most racecourses are built for speed and are maintained to have a fairly smooth surface. Still, this variable adds a huge IF for 'performance' drivers using less than perfect roads.

A friend of mine worked at a car dealership and he would bring different cars to lunch. We 'test drove' many cars One is a perfect example of high skidpad G vs real road grip. So the car in question was a '02 Firebird Formula, 350 with a 6speed and rigid axle. Let me say after driving it I totally understand the fascination with torque With wide tires and taut suspension grip was phenomenal. On a smooth surfaced onramp I was plastered on the door panel. However, on a bumpy right-hander, that I would take in my Integra without even thinking about the surface, the Firebird's tail became fidgety and unstable. I know the 'vette's no 'bird and has IRS but handling is a matter of degree.

*Ask about suspension design and the contact patch.

[jcp123]

Dont you all just race round ovals or 1/4 mile

I do, not very interested in curves at all.

[Slicks]

Skidpad G force testing is not the ultimate gauge of how a car will handle the real road. It is a preferred way of comparing because of its repeatability and the ability to control variables, producing consistency between tests on different cars. Variables such as road imperfections, the 'line' used to corner, and how vehicle dynamics(weight transfer) is affected by braking/acceleration are the real test for how a suspension setup will handle the real road/track.

But im not talking about driving on a 'real' road, im talking about a professional race track. That is where (legal) racing is done.

Again the oft repeated statement...it's not that the Corvette is bad handling it's just some cars can handle certain conditions better.

I cant deny that statement, that ay be true.

To build on an earlier point of agreement. Agreed that in a leafspring suspension, input from road irregularities on one side can affect/upset the other side. This would affect grip to a certain extent. If car 'Y' is not affected with this suspension shortcoming it would be better able to negotiate corners that upset a leafspring setup. Grip affects how well a car can brake, accelerate and change direction, how well it can go around a corner. Is the Corvette uncompetitive? Not by a long shot, as most racecourses are built for speed and are maintained to have a fairly smooth surface. Still, this variable adds a huge IF for 'performance' drivers using less than perfect roads.

Yes this is true, and i already brought up the point that leafs can effect both wheels becuse of the attachment.

A friend of mine worked at a car dealership and he would bring different cars to lunch. We 'test drove' many cars

lol

One is a perfect example of high skidpad G vs real road grip. So the car in question was a '02 Firebird Formula, 350 with a 6speed and rigid axle. Let me say after driving it I totally understand the fascination with torque With wide tires and taut suspension grip was phenomenal. On a smooth surfaced onramp I was plastered on the door panel. However, on a bumpy right-hander, that I would take in my Integra without even thinking about the surface, the Firebird's tail became fidgety and unstable. I know the 'vette's no 'bird and has IRS but handling is a matter of degree.
*Ask about suspension design and the contact patch.

Yes, i wouldnt doubt that the f-car had trouble in bumpy turns, the live rear end isnt every helpful here. But if you really think about it, if that car were to be 'proberly' (and legally) raced it would be on a track. And on a track there (should be) mostlikely wont be bumps, atleast not like that. I mean i wouldnt think a F1 car would take lightly to bumps, and those are by no way 'bad' race cars.

[Slicks]

I do, not very interested in curves at all.

haha, i will second that though and live up to the american steriotype. I rather be going fast in a strait line than on turns. Dont get me wrong i love both, but prefer the straits.

[Matra et Alpine]

PerfAdv's pretty much added the points for you Slick.
I dont' see the need to repeat myself AGAIN for youto "read over" and contineu in ignorance.

Try to grasp them, please.

And yes I DO know how a transverse leaf spring works. You dolt ( that is NOT a typo ) PROVING AGAIN you don't read posts !!!!

and yes I DO know how the gravitional pull of the sun keeps the earth in orbit ( you did mean that rather than alignment - as it's due to the earths spin !! ) See, we did that when I was in Physics class when I was 14. When you get to join that class you'll find out about it. I think it IS terribel that your education system has held you back in kindergarten all these years

You've NOT "correct me" as you state. You've presented orthogonal inputs to a point raised to avoid facing reality. The only ONE I remember is the difference between C5/6/Z06 and for that I did thank you at the time -- oops you'll have "read over" that too

and YES, I am enjoying baiting the dummy. Sad, but every so often folks like you DO need to be challenged to get you to realise that trying to come off as knowledgable is OK up to the point where you're obnoxious, boring and repetitive. THen occasionally an adult (me) comes into the room and slaps you ( or takes your favourite toy away ). Consider it done
Go to a debating class and learn that THAT is what happens to poorly constructed discourse.
Also learn to speed-read so that you stop making the mistake of "reading over" important information, it might save your life someday.

[Matra et Alpine]

haha, i will second that though and live up to the american steriotype. I rather be going fast in a strait line than on turns. Dont get me wrong i love both, but prefer the straits.

I've not heard of anyone crashing out on a clear straight.
it usually happens on turns

I think you may suggest you prefer the acceleration over the handling.
That's fine.
I prefer the fun of both and enjoy changing setups to make the most of the fun to be had with each.
But as a straight can only make me smile for 9-15 secs then I prefer the handling to be able to keep the foot down and smile for minutes at a time.

For straight line I LOVE my sports bike - best bang-for-buck going

[Egg Nog]

Yes conditions change and that's the crux of this discussion, not 10ths of seconds. Not that the Corvette is better or worse at a particular track but that it can't perform as well under varying conditions because of its design. It has a more basic design and for this reason is less capable at certain tasks.

Sorry... just to be clear, the paragraph that you're replying to wasn't really aimed at you - It was more toward my_porsche et al. Sorry for the confusion

[Matra et Alpine]

Yes, i wouldnt doubt that the f-car had trouble in bumpy turns, the live rear end isnt every helpful here. But if you really think about it, if that car were to be 'proberly' (and legally) raced it would be on a track. And on a track there (should be) mostlikely wont be bumps, atleast not like that. I mean i wouldnt think a F1 car would take lightly to bumps, and those are by no way 'bad' race cars.

erm, race tracks have bumps on them.
Some F1 race tracks have them mostly removed by the Bernie circus to the detriment of the racing drivers SKILL.
But not all and CERTAINLY not all the tracks the drivers enjoy racing on.
Then there are closed circuit road races.
It's the ovals that tend to be the mirror smooth tracks to allow it to be safer when doing such high speeds.
Watch racing next time and observe wheel and suspension movement and you'll realise how bumpy they are.
ADN THEN there are the kerbs when trying to shave fractions off of lap times

[nanabols]

Road and Track Corvette C6 vs 911 Carrera S Dec04

[Slicks]

PerfAdv's pretty much added the points for you Slick.
I dont' see the need to repeat myself AGAIN for youto "read over" and contineu in ignorance.

Try to grasp them, please.

And yes I DO know how a transverse leaf spring works. You dolt ( that is NOT a typo ) PROVING AGAIN you don't read posts !!!!

and yes I DO know how the gravitional pull of the sun keeps the earth in orbit ( you did mean that rather than alignment - as it's due to the earths spin !! ) See, we did that when I was in Physics class when I was 14. When you get to join that class you'll find out about it. I think it IS terribel that your education system has held you back in kindergarten all these years

Really, so EXACTLY explain how the suns gravity keeps us here. It was an example...

You've NOT "correct me" as you state. You've presented orthogonal inputs to a point raised to avoid facing reality. The only ONE I remember is the difference between C5/6/Z06 and for that I did thank you at the time -- oops you'll have "read over" that too

Ive corrected you and you know it. And ONE is still one, not knowing the difference between the C6/C5/and Z06 is a pretty big deal, expecially since you debate so much against the corvette.

and YES, I am enjoying baiting the dummy. Sad, but every so often folks like you DO need to be challenged to get you to realise that trying to come off as knowledgable is OK up to the point where you're obnoxious, boring and repetitive. THen occasionally an adult (me) comes into the room and slaps you ( or takes your favourite toy away ). Consider it done
Go to a debating class and learn that THAT is what happens to poorly constructed discourse.
Also learn to speed-read so that you stop making the mistake of "reading over" important information, it might save your life someday.

Shows your maturaty. You were most likley picked on as a kid, and now you like to be thought of as "authority" in which in reality you are just a whiney overgrown kid.

[Slicks]

I've not heard of anyone crashing out on a clear straight.
it usually happens on turns

Exactly, ill race the "safe way."

I think you may suggest you prefer the acceleration over the handling.
That's fine.
I prefer the fun of both and enjoy changing setups to make the most of the fun to be had with each.
But as a straight can only make me smile for 9-15 secs then I prefer the handling to be able to keep the foot down and smile for minutes at a time.

For straight line I LOVE my sports bike - best bang-for-buck going

Definetly, but the main reason i prefer straits is our road setup here. We have our fair share of the twisties, but most of the road is strait. And of me to get on the twisties i have to go out of my way, where as if i want to play around on a strait road there everywhere.

[Matra et Alpine]

Really, so EXACTLY explain how the suns gravity keeps us here. It was an example...

ah so we chose to be selective on being anal now coz you've talked yourself into a corner of your own stupidity.
So the gravitational pull of the sun is balanced with the centripetal force of the earth on its' orbit around the sun. Do you need more ??

Ive corrected you and you know it. And ONE is still one, not knowing the difference between the C6/C5/and Z06 is a pretty big deal, expecially since you debate so much against the corvette.

Woo-hoo, glad to see your SOO pleased about it, I accpeted it and thanked you for it immediately at the tim.
But you wont' accept that ANYOEN can take on a point of view just because you can't. We're not all liek you SLicks - thank God
You also get VERY confused over a car and it's badge/name. The underlying engineering principles and setups are very limited in the world. Anyone claiming something NEW in the auto industry is a liar. Most of any 'new' stuff has been around for over 50 years. So experince from those can be considerd as having validity. Yep, not 100% ( which your anal outlook demands ) but getting within 5% is as good as you can expect given all the other variables in the world on any test - weather, tyres wear, age, fatigue, drinkgs the night before and a million others.

Shows your maturaty. You were most likley picked on as a kid, and now you like to be thought of as "authority" in which in reality you are just a whiney overgrown kid.

Slicks you're the only one having trouble accepting 'authority'.
You just can't COPE that someone can challenge you and won't just back down when you get obsessive and aggressive and obstructive. See this time around I warned you I woudlnt' back down. Everyoen else has backed down in your life and you think your approach is reasonable. It's not. You should have been advised as a kid and guided to interact at a more social level. You were warned this time around. So you feel as if you're being slapped ? Well you are and you were told you woudl be, so your choice. BECAUSE people likeyou disgust me when you interact with more quiet people and you put them down, shout them down, try to baffle them with irrelevant details. it's classic schoolyard bully tactics. Well consider this "the worm turns" on behalf of all the kids you've put down with BS masquerading as knowledge.

Difference between you and I is perfectly demonstrated with MY weekend activities.
I was listening intently to other rally drivers, navigators and engineers to increase my undesrtanding, knowledge, skill and experiences - hence the blast int he supercharded Landy.
I view life IS a learning exercise.
I learn and it's my "social duty" to offer that learnign to others.
You dont' and can't listen so you dont' see any benefits.
Go back in your box and play with the soft toys and big crayons

[Slicks]

ah so we chose to be selective on being anal now coz you've talked yourself into a corner of your own stupidity.
So the gravitational pull of the sun is balanced with the centripetal force of the earth on its' orbit around the sun. Do you need more ??

Not quite, and how am i being anal, whats with you and people being anal. Yes, i need a better explanation, thats not good enough. It was an example man, drop it.

Woo-hoo, glad to see your SOO pleased about it, I accpeted it and thanked you for it immediately at the tim.
But you wont' accept that ANYOEN can take on a point of view just because you can't. We're not all liek you SLicks - thank God
You also get VERY confused over a car and it's badge/name. The underlying engineering principles and setups are very limited in the world. Anyone claiming something NEW in the auto industry is a liar. Most of any 'new' stuff has been around for over 50 years. So experince from those can be considerd as having validity. Yep, not 100% ( which your anal outlook demands ) but getting within 5% is as good as you can expect given all the other variables in the world on any test - weather, tyres wear, age, fatigue, drinkgs the night before and a million others.

I accept POV just as anyone esle does, but agreeing and accepting are two different things, you seem to get things mixed up a lot. How do i get comfused about a car and its badge/name? Did i ever claim anything to be "new"? What are you trying to get at here?

Slicks you're the only one having trouble accepting 'authority'.
You just can't COPE that someone can challenge you and won't just back down when you get obsessive and aggressive and obstructive. See this time around I warned you I woudlnt' back down. Everyoen else has backed down in your life and you think your approach is reasonable. It's not. You should have been advised as a kid and guided to interact at a more social level. You were warned this time around. So you feel as if you're being slapped ? Well you are and you were told you woudl be, so your choice. BECAUSE people likeyou disgust me when you interact with more quiet people and you put them down, shout them down, try to baffle them with irrelevant details. it's classic schoolyard bully tactics. Well consider this "the worm turns" on behalf of all the kids you've put down with BS masquerading as knowledge.

I have no trouble accepting authority at all. But your not authority.
I can and do cope with people who "dont back down." Actually i dont think that anyone has ever backed down from me, so your getting no where with this.
What this approuch you ASSUME i have? The true approuch i have is facts, i find them, then disregard silly biased opinions.
No, i dont feel as if i were being slaped, i feel more like im being bitched at by some opionated fat lady who wont shut up. She thinks that by using big word she sounds smarter, and wont down right admit to ever being wrong, or having a biased opinion.

Difference between you and I is perfectly demonstrated with MY weekend activities.
I was listening intently to other rally drivers, navigators and engineers to increase my undesrtanding, knowledge, skill and experiences - hence the blast int he supercharded Landy.
I view life IS a learning exercise.
I learn and it's my "social duty" to offer that learnign to others.
You dont' and can't listen so you dont' see any benefits.
Go back in your box and play with the soft toys and big crayons

Why do you keep comparing yourself to me? Are you trying to be a role model?
No, the difference between you and me are you assume i dont listen, and absorb information. You assume at everything i do, and dont do. You take wild guesses that sound about right, and then state them as if they were facts.