Fuel Resources

[PerfAdv]

View of the road ahead. The taller vehicle allows for a better view over smaller cars, while obstructing the sight-lines of lower vehicles. Why is it so difficult to admit that SUVs and larger vehicles are more obstrusive. I am comfortable in the knowledge that by obstructing someone's view of the road ahead I'm endangering them. I am very pleased that the car behind my truck has no idea the light has already turned green. I am so happy that if I inch ahead into the crosswalk a little I will block the view of those turning right Cheap thrills that Soccer moms and SUV chumps enjoy at the expense of other's safety and fuel resources.

partial solution: Include automotive liability insurance to the price of fuel. Lets say 20 cents/gal. Why should I have to pay for ever increasing premuims because some insecure SUV driver wants to drive around like a twit, playing bumber cars. This will limit some of people who drive SUVs, just coz its soooo safe

[crisis]

Safe driving on roads is all about driving to the visible safety zone.
So if you dont' see far engough ahead you slow down.
Most drivers just arent' trained this way or grasp it.
So it doesn't matter what height a car s, you can still drive it safely by usign what you CAN see effectively.

know you are responding to a comment but the safety issue about SUV drivers is seperate and not a sole domain of theirs either. I think most countries governments could spend more of their easily grafted speeding fine dollars on proper education of all drivers. I aslo advocate special courses for thos who drive larger vehicles.

Riding a motorbike is real easy once the trick is learned. Over here it's taught straight out of the police motorbike riding technique.

Sorry Matra, I would love to ride a motorbike and have had trail bikes but to me it is suicidal. Mostly due to car drivers ignorance and selfishness (although there are more than enough Dark Riders out their as well).

[crisis]

The ONLY time you get an advantage is at the point you crest the brow of a hill. But it's still not anything significant

Actually that is an advantage in the country. So is viewing ahead for overtaking. So is being in radio contact with other members of your convoy.

[Matra et Alpine]

If you took all the two seat sports cars, hot rods and "toys" they would make a reasonable impact on fuel usage. The vanity of driving a SUV is as justifiable as the kick you get from driving a sports car.

Agreed, if the sports car is for 'vanity' - like all those soccer players then I lump them in with the soccor moms

To each his own. I have bleated about my Landcruiser enough so you know where I am coming from but I would no more want sports cars banned either.

if the SUVs getting used AS an SUV again no problem.
It's wasting fuel and not actually needing or using it as intended that is wasteful.
hence the labelling of the 'soccor moms'

More and more of the SUVs are becoming more economical nowadays anyhow. The eschew ladder chassis, heavy suspension, they are sizing down and the feature new high tech motors that are increasingly fuel efficient.

But still half of the best in class vehicles to transport the same number of kids etc
The streets of the cities of Britain are becoming full of Landies Rang Rovers, Bemmer and Porsche SUVs. A very small fraction ever see dirty roads never mind tracks
Inappropriate - and like all social-engineering European governments will tax them in the cities till they don't contribue to the congestion

Not all powers stations are fueled that way (oil and gas).

http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/egrid...htm#highlights gives the breakdown in the US, so for Americans little is actually oil - which did surprise me. Dont' know how Oz is, but we've a fair bit of oil ( since the previous governments destroyed oru coal industry )
US pollution figures are at http://www.edf.org/documents/1041_Fa...lectricity.pdf
Of course this just puts into light that cars aren't the worst - just the easiest target

New cars use less fuel, and are lead free in many places. From a pure fuel efficiency point of view you may save some resouces by hanging onto older cars (no 20 year old 350 V8 would get near the economy of an LS1) but the picture is surely bigger.

When the energy to manufacture the raw materials is included it is a BIG negative impact that lasts decades. I'll try to find the origianl article - it was a while back

New car safety , including newer SUVs, is many times better than cars pre air bag, crumple zone, intrusion bars etc.

Now you can't argue the safety angle - granted.
but for us classic sports nuts it's a non-issue, got a full roll cage and full harness belts. Don't really need all that stuff to save me if I forget to belt in

Service intervals for new cars are also much longer (so we use less oil in changes, less parts etc).

This was all included.
IIRC modern high compression and turbo'd cars produce nastier pollutants in the old oils than older cars did. ( Course this is a non-argument for us classic competition nuts - and then there's Castrol-R of course, love the smell )

Peoples images of SUVs inevitably brings up images of Hummers and Dodge Rams but in Oz anyway you see more Prados (mid size Toyotas), Xtrails, Hondas etc. I have a personal opinion on them that I dont actually see any point in cars like this but thats no reason to ban them.

'ban' is a bit sever and I'd not want to limit anyones choice.
but making owners pay appropriate recompense for the extra pollution would be OK. AND if it wasn't for the US EPA rules having SUVs as 'trucks' and falling out of the tighter fuel consupmtion bracket we weouldn't be IN this mess in all likelihood. hard to blame people and manufacturers for going the 'cheapest' route - except we all pay in the environment.
AND yes the same's true for sportscars

[Matra et Alpine]

Actually that is an advantage in the country. So is viewing ahead for overtaking. So is being in radio contact with other members of your convoy.

Agreed on those nice long straight roads you Aussie's get
I used to think that was it all untill I went for a days ride with a biek cop.
( In Scotland we have a program called BikeSafe - you sit in a few classes with the cops and then you shadow one of them for a day. They aren't 'on duty' but are riding the roads they would normally be on )
I had already done the Advanced Riders course which taught the PRINCIPLES they use. Not until I was in 2-way aradio with the guy did I realise how much you could use vision all the way to the horizon to plan your road position, speed etc to maximise visibility and safety. it was a HUGE eye-0opener getting the practical input and DID improve the way I rode nad drove and increased what I woudl call my 'comfort' being able to judge potential dangers earlier and knwo I'd plenty of time to develop and put an appropriate plan into action.

One of the "funny stories" I pass on - was going through a village and we were getting to some nice twisties and he quietly asked me if I thought I should ride these next few corners more slowly. I replied not really. he then asked if I was aware of the bus coming. To which I slowed down, gulped and meekly said "No. I didnt' see ANY sign of it, where was it?". "Coming" he said and sure enough 2 corners later was a bloody bus ( which on narrow Scottish roads can be harrowing ). Anywa he told me later how he knew. Small village had a bus stop and there were 5 locals STANDING waiting for the bus. SO it was obvious there was a bus coming soon and I should prepare for it. BIG LESSON - it's not always what you see on the black stuff that determines safety and being in a 'comfort zone'. He then cited dozens of examples of similar 'pointers'.

[crisis]

The streets of the cities of Britain are becoming full of Landies Rang Rovers, Bemmer and Porsche SUVs. A very small fraction ever see dirty roads never mind tracks
Inappropriate - and like all social-engineering European governments will tax them in the cities till they don't contribue to the congestion

BMW, Porsche and Mercedes were very cynical (I know money talks) with their "SUVs". Apparently one of Porsches rationales was that they beleived every Porsche owner had an SUV in their garage (says it all really) so it may as well be a Porsche. In Oz they are a little higher priced comparativey but due to our import duty laws (4X4s now known as SUVs have lower duty, something to do with the historic fact that they were bought for commercial use) a comparative 4X4 BMW is better value than a sedan. Dont suppose that helps the proliferaton much either.

[crisis]

Agreed on those nice long straight roads you Aussie's get

Actually its the contrary. Its through the sweeping bends and undulations where having someone up ahead (a few ks) can radio to you to overtake safely where you would never dared. A bit distrubing for the driver you are overtaking.

One of the "funny stories" I pass on - was going through a village and we were getting to some nice twisties and he quietly asked me if I thought I should ride these next few corners more slowly. I replied not really. he then asked if I was aware of the bus coming. To which I slowed down, gulped and meekly said "No. I didnt' see ANY sign of it, where was it?". "Coming" he said and sure enough 2 corners later was a bloody bus ( which on narrow Scottish roads can be harrowing ). Anywa he told me later how he knew. Small village had a bus stop and there were 5 locals STANDING waiting for the bus. SO it was obvious there was a bus coming soon and I should prepare for it. BIG LESSON - it's not always what you see on the black stuff that determines safety and being in a 'comfort zone'. He then cited dozens of examples of similar 'pointers'.

Thats experience for you. Also a valid indication of driving/riding and being concious of your surroundings. Probably more important on a bike.

[Matra et Alpine]

Actually its the contrary. Its through the sweeping bends and undulations where having someone up ahead (a few ks) can radio to you to overtake safely where you would never dared. A bit distrubing for the driver you are overtaking.

Crossed lines
I was referring to cresting hills rather than the radio.

When I drive the LHD Bagheera round the twisties I get a few folks panicking when I overtake them on the corners Because I'm on the inside, I can look up the inside of the corner and see far enough ahead to see the road clear much earlier than if I was sitting in the righ side of the car. So I pull out and blast past when they're not expecting it. Quite often I'll get flashed coz the guy thinks I did the move without baing able to check the road clear. I always fancied gettign a sign for the back of the 'bag saying "dont' panic, I can see it was clear"

[crisis]

Crossed lines
I was referring to cresting hills rather than the radio.

I see. My mate was driving across the Nullabor (road form Adelaide to Perth straight for hundreds of kilometres) and when he crested a hill (more of a mound really) he saw two road trains side by side on top of a distant crest. He assumed on was overtaking the other (only two lanes on our major interstates, one each way). It didnt look right so he slowed down a bit and sure enough over the crest in front of him they came good buddy, side by side. Probably comparing piccys out of their respective stick books through the windows. I suppose their only so much info you can convey through a UHF.

[gow589]

MATRE, QUITE PM-ing ME!

I don't want to argue behind the curtains, I don't care what you think! I don't Care you think it's ok to go around in circles and burn gas, yet it's not ok for american women to buy the car of their choice. I don't care about all your twisted views of America. I don't Care!

Despite what you think, poeple are not out to get you, their out to get AWAY from you.

Quite PM'ing me, I don't read them, go away!

Your a MODERATOR, I CAN"T BLOCK YOU

QUITE PM'in ME!

[gow589]

What we need at this point is a technical description of SUV's and what people are refering to here. How everyone interprets this can be misleading. Is a truck an SUV, is a Van an SUV, A Jeep, That small Toyota 4 door (can't remember the name, little bitty thing).

[Matra et Alpine]

MATRE, QUITE PM-ing ME!

I don't want to argue behind the curtains, I don't care what you think! I don't Care you think it's ok to go around in circles and burn gas, yet it's not ok for american women to buy the car of their choice. I don't care about all your twisted views of America. I don't Care!

Despite what you think, poeple are not out to get you, their out to get AWAY from you.

Quite PM'ing me, I don't read them, go away!

Your a MODERATOR, I CAN"T BLOCK YOU

QUITE PM'in ME!

Fine, tried to approach this more civilly and avoid the public harranguing.

Sorry for you gow, I tried to point out the shear bias you ahve and the fact that you have NO IDEA of my views of America. Even when pointed out how positive I am.
I'm just not blinded by patriotism - BTW we have soccer moms in the UK, so see how you got it SOOOO wrong

Anyway, I'm not interested in public slanging on the views either which is why I tried to get you to see the 'jab' comment was inappropraite by PM.

OK, you wanted it public.

I feel I have the RIGHT to defend my reputation against infantile attacks.
As have others ( hence why Slicks and I had a few good rounds sparring )

So I seek opinion on the best way to handle lies spread about indivudlas.
Anyone interested can see the PMS and vote over in http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...ead.php?t=9647

BTW I've included a "don't care" option in the poll too so you can express the whole range of views you might have on how to handle those who attack a persons reputation and how they should defend it. ( just as Slicks did on many of my disparaging comments )

[Karrmann]

Fuel Resources

I have heard people complain about "Soccer Moms" burning the planets resources in "SUV's" yet these same people worship supercars, race cars, bikes, burning fuel without a productive cause. Many have been quite critical of these "Soccer Moms" in burning our children's resources. Where does one draw the line? Why is it ok for some one to burn fuel at a track then criticize some one half way across the world for having an interest in a car different than theirs?

Where do we draw the line? What is acceptable and what is not...And why. Is our interest in cars double sided?

if you are a soccer mom, why do you need a big ol SUV. in my religion of saving fuel (hey i'm a Prius fan) you should not get the biggest car in the world but a car that's just big enough, how much of an idiot are you? people who buy exotic cars just about never drive them!! my dad knows this guy who owns a lamborghini but all it does is sit in his garage, not a single mile on it cause he can't afford to run it, and BTW, if they can drive it they drive it very rarely cause they are so scred that something will happen to it and all that money will be wasted.

yes, we have a free choice in cars but cmon, you don't need a 10 MPG SUV. look at a Ford Taurus, the center consile can flod down into a seat to seat 6 people, or there is the Taurus station wagon whiich can seat 7 (a 2 person seat folds out of the cargo bed) and still gets 25 MPG, you can haul people while saving fuel. the Taurus also is THE most comfortable car ive been in (we get them all the time as rentals when my moms lemon caravan breaks down) so stop and think. you don't need that big SUV cause fotr the 100 time SUVS ARE NOT FAMILY CARS!!! if you have a 5 or less person family, consider a Toyota Prius, don't wanna wait for it (to get one you have to sign a waiting list cause it is so popular there is a national shortage) then consider an Avalon (comfortable, and all featureful for just 30,000) which is also a Toyota. too expensive, consider a Ford Taurus. is is only 23,000 and is sooooooooooooooo comfortable. have a bigger family, just upgrade it to a Taurus Stationwagon. a 2 person seat folds out from the cargo bay fitting 7 and it gets 25 MPG, so you got comfort and pratcially and all that crap you got in that stupid gas guzzler, in a fuel efficant package.

you acting like this wants me to slap you, race cars don't drive up gas prices, YOU ARE! you don't need a big SUV, just take that Taurus Station Wagon. well, if you are ever to buy one you should get it fixed at a Mr. muffler or so cause Ford has crappy consumer service. but other than that, the Taurus is immaculate. (but not as immaculate as a Prius!) so now, what do you think?

[Ferrari Tifosi]

get serious gow and put that chip away, PLEASE.

I've sat at 58mph with 3 feet gaps on the freeway in Atlanta.
I've driven at 65 down 101 with nose to tail.
I've driven in Boston -- aaaargh

I'll back up that statement involving Atlanta, the Vast majority here don't know how to driver well.