Nextel Allstar Race

[Jack_Bauer]

Point taking, Toyota is pulling out of F1 because they can't win in F1 and F1 in going to hell in a hand bag. So they go to the racing series that makes money and nobody knows who is going to win.

And at least NASCAR does NOT have ABS or traction control. Thats my definition of real racing.And I like for what it is. And I HATE anyone who likes racing just for the crashes. I don't care what type it is.

Toyota aren't pulling out of F1, and F1 NOT "going to hell in a handbasket" as you suggest.

Also, F1 cars do not have ABS.

[Daz27]

I hate traction control, If you havent got the brains/talent to modulate the pressure of your right foot on the loud pedal then you shouldnt be driving. Nascar has always bored me, especially those pissy half mile tracks those yanks love. Talledega and Daytona look like fun, but thats about where the line in the sand is for me. I might look at it differently if Ambrose gets there, but for now its dull. Too much like slot cars. Dont get me started on IRL... I dont mind the champ cars, they at least turn right ok, and the push to pass thing could be fun...

[Zytek_Fan]

It's impossible to drive an F1 car without traction control.

[MrKipling]

Jenson Button does

[Daz27]

Yeah thats a load of crap Zytek, where did ya pull that incredibly brown coloured piece of information? Especially now... 750 hp, a flies fart worth of torque, and ya NEED traction control to drive those things??? Be real... How many ponies do those champ cars have? 700 odd? then ya have push to pass which adds 50... Do they have traction control??? And nascar, the most wonderfully boring category on earth, theyve got upwards 750 plus hp, traction control on a nascar? Not on your cotton pickin' chin... Granted, an F1 car weighs in at 500 odd kilos... but thats not an excuse to have it. It just shows how lazy todays drivers are at perfecting their craft.
edit...
*Id like to add that nascar is not boring if its at talledega and the cars in question are 4 feet off the ground, inverted and on fire...and preferably still travelling at 200mph...*

[Zytek_Fan]

Another example: The Audi R10 at Sebring. Tom Kristensen said he had to slide it in a few corners because there was NO TRACTION CONTROL for it yet.

Try listening to an F1 onboard on tight corners, you'll here the traction control coming on

[PrevlingPushrod]

Toyota isn't pulling out of F1.
You try driving an F1 car without traction control; it's impossible

Fine, they are not pulling out. But traction control is for streetcars. If you have the skill to get in to ANY type of racing, you do not need traction control. If they can't handle the speeds, then lower the speeds and take the traction control off. But for now, in my book, F1 is not real racing. NASCAR may only turn left, but those drivers have the skill to go 200 mph centimeters from each other and not crash. And NASCAR is a fully enclosed cockpit. With fenders and everything, so they can't see around them, only stright ahead. THATS skill. And its not impossible.

[Rockefella]

Fine, they are not pulling out. But traction control is for streetcars. If you have the skill to get in to ANY type of racing, you do not need traction control. If they can't handle the speeds, then lower the speeds and take the traction control off. But for now, in my book, F1 is not real racing. NASCAR may only turn left, but those drivers have the skill to go 200 mph centimeters from each other and not crash. And NASCAR is a fully enclosed cockpit. With fenders and everything, so they can't see around them, only stright ahead. THATS skill. And its not impossible.

Well, I'm a fan of both, but how can you call NASCAR 'real racing' when it involves a left turn every 1/4 mile and a 50-80 mph range of speed? Stop being so biased...

Do you own a confederate flag?

[Zytek_Fan]

Fine, they are not pulling out. But traction control is for streetcars. If you have the skill to get in to ANY type of racing, you do not need traction control. If they can't handle the speeds, then lower the speeds and take the traction control off. But for now, in my book, F1 is not real racing. NASCAR may only turn left, but those drivers have the skill to go 200 mph centimeters from each other and not crash. And NASCAR is a fully enclosed cockpit. With fenders and everything, so they can't see around them, only stright ahead. THATS skill. And its not impossible.

Skill my ass

What about Le Mans sports cars? The LMP's are open top and have traction control so does that mean Tom Kristensen has no skill?

[johnnynumfiv]

You guys should really quit your bickering, everything takes some amount of skill to do, everyone likes what they like, why can't you guys respect that?

[Jack_Bauer]

Fine, they are not pulling out. But traction control is for streetcars. If you have the skill to get in to ANY type of racing, you do not need traction control. If they can't handle the speeds, then lower the speeds and take the traction control off.

You seem to be trying to suggest that because F1 cars have TC then the drivers have no skill? Are you seriously thinking that if Michael Schumacher or Fernando Alonso got into a Nascar or Champ Car that they wouldn't be able to handle it? That's utter nonsense. Of course they CAN drive without traction control. However, as long as TC is legal it just makes sense to have it there. As Mr Kipling mentioned above, Jenson Button drives in such a style that avoids activating the traction control as much as possible because it helps him go faster. However, it is still there just in case things go tits up. There are 2 main reasons why I think they still have TC in F1 cars:

1. They were supposed to get rid of TC back before the 2004 season, but that would've required a very costly reworking of the engine's installation and the functioning of the car's engine management systems, so the teams chose to boycott the ruling.

2. The FIA has been HEAVILY focussed on improving safety in all facets of motorracing. It would be very hard for them to justify removing TC on the fastest racing cars on the planet while still maintaining that safety was at the top of their priorities.

NASCAR may only turn left, but those drivers have the skill to go 200 mph centimeters from each other and not crash. And NASCAR is a fully enclosed cockpit. With fenders and everything, so they can't see around them, only stright ahead. THATS skill.

Yes, but F1 drivers also drive at 200mph centimetres from each other. But they also do it while under 5g's of braking load into corners, and whilst rapidly changing direction at 3-figure speeds under 3-4g's lateral load. Oh, and I've seen NASCAR before and they DO crash, rather frequently!

And Nascar has a "fully enclosed cockpit". Big friggin deal. That's not unlike dozens and dozens of GT and touring car series' across the globe. It's not exclusive to NASCAR, nor is it that special. Visibility isn't that great in any racing car. Have you ever actually sat in or driven a modern single seater race-car? You sit VERY low with head restraint all around you blocking sideways vision, and you have 2 mirrors both pretty much full of rear wing. Visibility is just as bad, if not worse, in an open wheel car because the mirrors are nowhere near as effective. How much do you really think Felipe Massa can really see around him for example...

[2ndclasscitizen]

Yeah thats a load of crap Zytek, where did ya pull that incredibly brown coloured piece of information? Especially now... 750 hp, a flies fart worth of torque, and ya NEED traction control to drive those things??? Be real... How many ponies do those champ cars have? 700 odd? then ya have push to pass which adds 50... Do they have traction control??? And nascar, the most wonderfully boring category on earth, theyve got upwards 750 plus hp, traction control on a nascar? Not on your cotton pickin' chin... Granted, an F1 car weighs in at 500 odd kilos... but thats not an excuse to have it. It just shows how lazy todays drivers are at perfecting their craft.

Yes, but Champ cars and Nascars both use full slicks, as opposed to F1's cut slicks, which give far less grip. Watching F1, I reckon most the times the TC cuts in is when the driver's have seriously overcooked and it stops the car going into the wall, so it's more a safety feature than driver aid these days.

*Id like to add that nascar is not boring if its at talledega and the cars in question are 4 feet off the ground, inverted and on fire...and preferably still travelling at 200mph...*

Genius

And to PrevlingPushrod, watch a V8 Supercar race. They race touching pretty much the whole time, with about 650hp and God knows how much torque going to tyres that are only 275 or 285 (I can't remember which), when a supercar with that much power will have 335 section rears, plus downforce. Road-car chassis with a solid rear axle taking some corners in the championship at around 200kmh. That's skill. I imagine if the V8s went to the USA, people would be lining up at Ford and GM dealers screaming for SS and HSV Commy's and XR8/6T and GT Falcons

[kingofthering]

Yes, but Champ cars and Nascars both use full slicks, as opposed to F1's cut slicks, which give far less grip. Watching F1, I reckon most the times the TC cuts in is when the driver's have seriously overcooked and it stops the car going into the wall, so it's more a safety feature than driver aid these days.

Genius

And to PrevlingPushrod, watch a V8 Supercar race. They race touching pretty much the whole time, with about 650hp and God knows how much torque going to tyres that are only 275 or 285 (I can't remember which), when a supercar with that much power will have 335 section rears, plus downforce. Road-car chassis with a solid rear axle taking some corners in the championship at around 200kmh. That's skill. I imagine if the V8s went to the USA, people would be lining up at Ford and GM dealers screaming for SS and HSV Commy's and XR8/6T and GT Falcons

I want the GT Falcons. Car And Driver mentioned the FPV vehicles as vehicles that may save Ford. Anyway, BTCC, V8 Supercars and those touring car series are similar to Nascar, so don't say that it is "inferior" because Jeff Gordon was able to jump into Juan Pablo Montoya's F1 BMW and qualify in the top ten.

[Daz27]

Slicks versus grooved doesnt come into the equation purely because of the differences in compound and construction variables. If you think Bridgestone and Michelin cant make a grooved tyre as good as a full slick now then I think you might need a good lie down and a cup of tea while I call the relevant nutter hospital in your location (please supply phone number). Secondly I dont believe that F1 are still the fastest race cars, I believe IRL has that honour, possibly those Leman thingos are faster too but I dont get a chance to see them. TC should be banned in F1, I believe it'll add to the show watching JPM stuff up more often with is apparant inability to correctly judge his throttle percentages. (You tell me you didnt piss yourself laughing when he spun out on the parade lap at Melbourne). While there at it, bring back manually shifting cog-box's too. With a stick, not them poofy paddles, a boat has paddles, not a racing car. Thanks for the genius comment there 2ndclasscitizen... I thought what I said was inspired too... Kingofthering, I want a GT too... and the V8 supertaxis run 10 inch wide rims, and last time I had a peak at one, I 'think' it had 275 licorice straps around them.

[PrevlingPushrod]

So, did anyone see the Allstar race? Yes or no.