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Thread: The Future of the Falcon and Commodore

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post

    There's also something else; front wheel drive has advanced so much these days that there's no need for rear wheel drive in large car application. In the olden days putting large engine with large amounts of power through the front wheels was a challenge. You were most likely to ruin the balance and handling of the car, so the constraints in space packaging and build costs where something that was accepted. But since front wheel drive has been refined to the point of overcoming all those problems you might as well go for the layout that the most space and cost-efficient.

    So, R.I.P rear wheel drive.
    I have yet to see that. I guess it depends on what you mean by “large”. I drove an Aurion and it was not the greatest. If you were to feed the power of a 6lt V8 through front wheels I doubt it would be much fun either. I can’t say I have ever driven a front wheel drive car that gave me any sense of driving pleasure.

    But the reality is people would rather have IPod connectivity, Bluetooth capability and a shoe drawer under the front seat, no shit , than anything that relates to the actual driving of a car. Most ads for new cars don’t mention anything about cars dynamics. All they sell is the amount of gadgets in the car. It’s a sad day but I can’t help feeling we have dodged a bullet on this for a few years now.

    Aside from the diminishing amount of fossils like me who care about RWD there is a more serious consequence in the form of associated business closures and job losses from all this. Once Holden only produce Daewoo’s locally there will be no point of difference in the locally produced product from any of the endless sea of front wheel drive small cars. Holden brand loyalty will quickly erode and the company will go the same way Ford is and cease any production here.
    "A string is approximately nine long."
    Egg Nogg 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

  2. #17
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    Let's be brutally honest here, for every person which cares about rear wheel drive dynamics there are at least ten who don't, if not more. In any case, these days cars are pushing 300bhp or thereabouts through the front wheels and everything seems to be fine. True it is not the same as rear wheel drive but torque steer and understeer have been minimised significantly compared to the olden days. In most cases there's also four wheel drive for the top of the line versions.

    A big V8 may not be suitable for front wheel drive applications, but again, these days modern V6s have as much power (if not more) as the old V8s, while being more compact, efficient and frugal. The need for V8s has been reduced greatly and anyway pretty much nobody which buys a Ford or a Holden can afford a big V8 nowadays. If you can afford to run a V8 you'll most likely go for something with a bit more caché in the badge.

    There's also the gadget-ladden, tech-fest cars that people seem to prefer today.

    I'm not a defender of the situation, I'm just saying as it is. Today front wheel drive cars drive just as well and go just as fast as their rear wheel drive counterparts and are usually more spacious and more frugal. So for the majority it is a no brainer. They are also cheaper to produce so for the manufacturers they are no brainer too.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  3. #18
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    I don't see why enthusiasts deride commuters for driving "boring" cars, like a Corolla, or Auris, what have you. They are fine vehicles.

  4. #19
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    Some of them can even be good fun to drive, more than cars with better badges and which cost quite a lot more money.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Let's be brutally honest here, for every person which cares about rear wheel drive dynamics there are at least ten who don't, if not more.
    Yep. Most younger drivers don’t even know there is a difference. Many others as you say do not factor that in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    In most cases there's also four wheel drive for the top of the line versions.
    So they build cars with front wheel drive instead of rear wheel drive to cut costs then spend more than both on all wheel drive to retain handling/dynamics?....
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    A big V8 may not be suitable for front wheel drive applications, but again, these days modern V6s have as much power (if not more) as the old V8s
    but not the new V8s,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    while being more compact, efficient and frugal.
    Compact is important in a small car, efficient and frugal are not really factors at the top of the list when you are buying performance cars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    The need for V8s has been reduced greatly and anyway pretty much nobody which buys a Ford or a Holden can afford a big V8 nowadays.
    I am not sure a “need” for a V8 really ever existed. The demand for them may have reduced though but you still see quite a lot of SSVs driving around. Some people are affording them still.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    If you can afford to run a V8 you'll most likely go for something with a bit more caché in the badge.
    It depends on you motive for purchase. If you want a V8 for power and torque then the snob appeal of a blue and white propeller badge may be inconsequential. It is for me. If you want a whole load of luxury appointments you will get them in a SSV for a whole lot less than you will in a BMW or Mercedes here in Australia. The cost of running a Mercedes and BMW in Australia will shift from fuel to the intangibles i.e. insurance and servicing costs. I can’t see any real value in that which will equate to driving pleasure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    There's also the gadget-ladden, tech-fest cars that people seem to prefer today.
    Quite true. People are more interested in the things that take their attention from driving than the elements that involve them in it. Holden has conceded that by loading the VF Commodore with a heap of that fluff. They also made it more powerful, economical and cheaper. Pity the horse has bolted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    I'm not a defender of the situation, I'm just saying as it is. Today front wheel drive cars drive just as well
    subjective
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    and go just as fast
    ultimately no but in a practical sense yes
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    as their rear wheel drive counterparts and are usually more spacious
    no
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    and more frugal. So for the majority it is a no brainer.
    It’s a no brainier because as I said people would rather have IPod connectivity, Bluetooth capability and a shoe drawer under the front seat than anything that relates to the actual driving of a car. In any case Holden will soon be producing front wheel drive bland little boxes like everyone else and I believe that will be the final nail in the coffin for Australian car production. Not that we have any relevance anymore anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    I don't see why enthusiasts deride commuters for driving "boring" cars, like a Corolla, or Auris, what have you. They are fine vehicles.
    Not I. I have an old clunker Corolla, have had a Camry, Mazda 6 and a variety of boring FWD cars in the family. They do/did their job but they are not “fun” to drive.
    "A string is approximately nine long."
    Egg Nogg 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

  6. #21
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    Commodores and Falcons (and Omegas and Scorpios) are not performance cars. They can have sporty versions, but when manufacturers design them performance and handling isn't necessarily at the top of the list. That's why for most people (though probably not the ones here) rear wheel drive is completely irrelevant.

    Also regarding four wheel drive, most rear wheel drive cars have also such options, therefore also incurring in the cost of having to engineer two drive systems.

    Also in terms of packaging a front wheel drive transverse-engined car with pretty much all mechanical elements under the bonnet is more efficient than a rear wheel drive longitudinal-engined which demands a longer bonnet as well as transmission tunnel, driveshaft, a rear differential, etc. all of which intrude in the space for occupants and luggage.

    In the end if you are a car enthusiast and want a rear wheel drive car you either go for a dedicated model (GT86, Genesis Coupé) or go premium (3 Series, C-Class).

    It is also false that you can't have fun in front wheel drive. You can in this or this.

    (I can't believe I'm defending front wheel drive cars!)
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Also in terms of packaging a front wheel drive transverse-engined car with pretty much all mechanical elements under the bonnet is more efficient than a rear wheel drive longitudinal-engined which demands a longer bonnet as well as transmission tunnel, driveshaft, a rear differential, etc. all of which intrude in the space for occupants and luggage.
    ^ with that said i don't know how the americans managed to make the taurus FWD, the same size as the falcon and so much worse in terms of interior space..
    Andreas Preuninger, Manager of Porsche High Performance Cars: "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging."

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Commodores and Falcons (and Omegas and Scorpios) are not performance cars. They can have sporty versions, but when manufacturers design them performance and handling isn't necessarily at the top of the list.
    The sporty versions pay a little more than lip service to performance. They are not merely rep mobiles with added spoilers and alloy wheels. The Commodore has different suspension, a powerful engine and in the case of the Redline, Brembo front brakes. Whether they qualify as “Performance” cars in the most purist sense of the word of course may be debatable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    That's why for most people (though probably not the ones here) rear wheel drive is completely irrelevant.
    I don’t quite get you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Also in terms of packaging a front wheel drive transverse-engined car with pretty much all mechanical elements under the bonnet is more efficient than a rear wheel drive longitudinal-engined which demands a longer bonnet as well as transmission tunnel, driveshaft, a rear differential, etc. all of which intrude in the space for occupants and luggage.
    Efficient use of space is really only realized in particularly small cars. All of those things mentioned are of little compromise in a car the size of a Falcon or Commodore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    In the end if you are a car enthusiast and want a rear wheel drive car you either go for a dedicated model (GT86, Genesis Coupé)
    Nice if that’s what you want
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    or go premium (3 Series, C-Class).
    If you have the cash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    It is also false that you can't have fun in front wheel drive. You can in this or this.
    Both of those leave me cold, the Renault almost sick but it’s all a matter of taste I guess. What they can deliver can not necessarily be delivered by a powerful large RWD sedan and vice a versa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    (I can't believe I'm defending front wheel drive cars!)
    LOL, it’s not an argument really. It is a fact of life that only the rich will be driving anything else in the not too distant future. Not a big deal in many cases but a cultural shift for old farts like me in Australia. That said I hope to have a V8 Commodore or Monaro again when circumstances permit.
    "A string is approximately nine long."
    Egg Nogg 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisis View Post
    I don’t quite get you?
    What I meant is that we (as in the people who hang around in UCP) do value rear wheel drive dynamics, and are possibly inclined to spend a little bit more on our car to have them.

    However if the break even point for a mainstream rear wheel drive car is 100,000 we amount to about 6, which means that the other 99,994 actually either don't care or prefer front wheel drive.

    That means that unfortunately it is alost battle.

    The demise of the Falcon is actually doubly disappointing because it also means another demise of another one of those great rara avis, the straight six engine.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  10. #25
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    Ford have never given serious thought on competing with the rising tide of good quality value for money cars coming from Asia, mostly well equipped and well built, economical to run and 'Family Friendly'.
    Large V8 sedans are dead in the water, the vast majority of Falcon and Commodore sales have been 6 cylinders, even the ridiculous 'Utes' beloved of the Bogans are mostly V6 powered.
    Ford sells good small cars, both the Fiesta and Focus (I believe) coming in as PKD kits while the Mondeo is fully imported.
    Given that Ford USA are using the Mondeo platform as the base of their medium/large model I'd expect Ford Australia might do the same.

    No country can afford to lose automotive manufacturing technology, as opposed to automotive assembly.
    But times change, and companies need to recognise this fact.

    I never ever thought I would be enthusiastic about a Hyundai, but I must admit that the fully loaded RWD Genesis really impressed me .............
    Who Dares Wins

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