Heel and toe

[McReis]

Didn't knew where to put this thread, so here it stays.

How many of you do manage to do the heel and toe thing correctly?
How many of you use it on more spirited drives or track days?

For me, it still feels like a difficult thing to do, and road car pedal set-up don't give you a chance, usually.

What I manage to do when a I have a small space to brake, want to keep revs on and not blowing my clutch, is to take the foot of the brake pedal for a "milisecond" and accelerate so to put the engine in a rev range more close to the car movement in the next downgear. It's not as efficient, but I guess it's better than force the engine and clutch to match the ground covering speed of the transmission, and to certificate that the wheels don't stop and slide, right?

Is this a good, properly made question?

[BarryM3]

Depends on the car you are driving and like you say how the pedals are set-up, but it should be possible on most cars.....

The term 'Toe and Heel' isn't really accurate though, you more use the ball of your foot to brake and tilt your foot to the right catching the throttle pedal with the side of your foot.

I can't see the method you say you use working too well, by coming off the brake and then back on again you would be upsetting the balance of the car, and if you have enough time to do that then you are not really going quick enough to be worring about Toe-Heeling in the first place!

[McReis]

Depends on the car you are driving and like you say how the pedals are set-up, but it should be possible on most cars.....

The term 'Toe and Heel' isn't really accurate though, you more use the ball of your foot to brake and tilt your foot to the right catching the throttle pedal with the side of your foot.

I can't see the method you say you use working too well, by coming off the brake and then back on again you would be upsetting the balance of the car, and if you have enough time to do that then you are not really going quick enough to be worring about Toe-Heeling in the first place!

First thing: Be welcome!
Second thing: Is that E30 M3 yours? If it is, congrats! It's one of the most fantastic cars I know.

Third thing: I only do that brake-gas-brake when I'm still on the straight.
And when You're driving a Diesel car like mine (and with big gear to gear steps), and really need to brake fast using the gears, either you do this, or you'll end up breaking the engine sooner or latter.
Anyway, it's obvious a diesel isn't meant for spirited drives, but here in Portugal we have a popular phrase that says: "If you don't have an hunting dog, do it with a cat."

[Wouter Melissen]

In my Mini it is pretty much impossible to get onto the throttle while braking, the distance is just too large. Ideal would be to have a throttle that is mounted on the floor, instead of hanging off the dashboard.

[BarryM3]

Thanks McReis - Yes thats my car!

A diesel car would be a different thing, but I really don't think its necessary to toe heel unless you are in a generally light car that you are driving right on the limit!

[McReis]

In my Mini it is pretty much impossible to get onto the throttle while braking, the distance is just too large. Ideal would be to have a throttle that is mounted on the floor, instead of hanging off the dashboard.

I know that! The Mini has the accelerator almost hidden.
But in the Fiat it is possible. I just can't manage to accelerate and balancing the braking well. And in the Fiat it would be useful in those little sprint competitions I enter, because the front is so light that I sometimes have the need to gently brake with the left foot so I can keep the line over the slip surfaces, without going wide.

[henk4]

I know that! The Mini has the accelerator almost hidden.
But in the Fiat it is possible. I just can't manage to accelerate and balancing the braking well. And in the Fiat it would be useful in those little sprint competitions I enter, because the front is so light that I sometimes have the need to gently brake with the left foot so I can keep the line over the slip surfaces, without going wide.

I never managed it completely in the Fiat (same as yours), and then I lost interest, and my current car does not invite feverish cornering anyway. For the Mini you may need size 60 shoes.

[McReis]

I never managed it completely in the Fiat (same as yours), and then I lost interest, and my current car does not invite feverish cornering anyway. For the Mini you may need size 60 shoes.

But then again, if you had size 60, you wouldn't fit in the Mini!
So you still had the thrilling experience of driving your father's 850?

[McReis]

Thanks McReis - Yes thats my car!

Now there's two of us with an avatar of ourselves performing a powerslide. Errrrmmm... Have I said power? Ok, let it be just drift.

[henk4]

But then again, if you had size 60, you wouldn't fit in the Mini!
So you still had the thrilling experience of driving your father's 850?

and wearing off the standard rear crossplies within 12000 km, so we could put Michelin XAS on the car.

[McReis]

and wearing off the standard rear crossplies within 12000 km, so we could put Michelin XAS on the car.

My Fiat still had the original crossplies when my father bought it from it's lady owner. But they were so dry and cracky, they went right off.

However I think my father exagerated a bit, because this tires should be a bit narrower. The steering is sooo heavy...

But now the expenses are on me, so they'll stay there for some more time...

[escort mexico]

i have discovered that you need to be pushing pretty hard on the brakes to 'heel toe' otherwise (in my experience) that as soon as you try to 'heel' the accelerator, you press the brakes harder and jolt the car anyway.... (maybe it's just my driving...)

[henk4]

My Fiat still had the original crossplies when my father bought it from it's lady owner. But they were so dry and cracky, they went right off.

However I think my father exagerated a bit, because this tires should be a bit narrower. The steering is sooo heavy...

But now the expenses are on me, so they'll stay there for some more time...

normally the steering with radials would be a bit heavier, can't remember the 'size, I think it was 145x13, standard was 135 or so. Never found the steering heavy, so there might be something wrong with yours.

[McReis]

normally the steering with radials would be a bit heavier, can't remember the 'size, I think it was 145x13, standard was 135 or so. Never found the steering heavy, so there might be something wrong with yours.

I know my steering box is not at it's best. It needs to be rebuilt or, better, changed. However, those tires are 145 I think, but as you can't use a high pressure in them (otherwise the car would fall into pieces over portuguese rough roads) the steering gets heavy and tricky. For example: if you turn the wheel to a certain point (not much) it never gets back the "0" point by itself. But this might be usual in this cars...It has always been like that and I never drove another example of this cars, so I just got used to it.

I'd love to know how those OT Abarths could steer like that. They had no steering box I guess.

BTW, I have a friend who would sell me at a great price a 1000 Abarth engine, alloys and steering wheel. He is always trying to persuade me to make an Abarth replica. But I'm so found of my "standard looks"... Would you do that?

[Matra et Alpine]

i have discovered that you need to be pushing pretty hard on the brakes to 'heel toe' otherwise (in my experience) that as soon as you try to 'heel' the accelerator, you press the brakes harder and jolt the car anyway.... (maybe it's just my driving...)

it's just practise - on track of course
Keep persevering, it'll come.