McLaren MP4-12C

[Badsight]

will you post shots of your Lotus 7 when you get it?

if i had the money - my 2 seater of choice would be an Ultima

would love to get a drive in a caterham tho - serious 4 cylinder fun

[thebrochureman]

I would really take all the comments on magazines with a grain of salt....when they talk about feel or emotion or whatever, they are picking bones from an egg.

Yes your write, i think the Mclaren MP4-12C and the Ferrari 458 are so similar that if you wanted to buy one you would obviously have to test both and see which one you prefer. Also because there so similar it's which car company do you prefer, are you a Mclaren or Ferrari man.

[RacingManiac]

I can agree with that. Still you have to wonder how much of the experience comes from the car itself and how much from the computer-set parameters. And I'm guessing that's IBM winning here...

Thats my point, they are all programmed to behave as they are, Ferrari, McLaren, or otherwise. It is extremely unlikely that nowadays a company who make this sort of cars can get the basics wrong, what with the amount of analysis, tire data and simulation they can run. The "basics" are probably all there and pretty optimized. But how much to filter to the drivers, to "help" them and to extract the maximum performance from the car, is left to the myriad of electronics nannies(ESP, TCS) or otherwise(semi-active suspension, electronically controlled diff). The pure performance side of the equation is easy, to make something as fast as it can go, it's a set goal, with measurable results. The subjective tuning is the tricky part, and that requires years of customer feedback and experienced development guys. And I think the crux of what McLaren might be suffering is the latter. Brake-diff may well be something from that. Its inconceivable that they will choose something like that on cost ground, for a $200+k car. They must genuinely believe its better performance wise, and it likely is. If you think about the compromise of a LSD, any slippage left to right will cause the diff to lock up and potentially yaw the car. Uneven surface, broken pavement, dusty environment. The car can pull left or right on a perfectly straight road if that were the road its driving on. Think Focus RS MK1. A brake actuated version won't suffer that, as it is programmed to know if you are going straight, or you are actually turning. This sounds all fine and dandy, until your goal is not driving as fast as it can go anymore. Hooning, as it were.....

Badsight, all I am saying is McLaren or Ferrari, both experiences are manufactured. Ferrari is just as computerized as McLaren. The fault is not in that, but in the ultimate execution, it is ultimately, the concept of "fun" between the Ferrari R&D guys, vs McLaren's.....

[Ferrer]

Thats my point, they are all programmed to behave as they are, Ferrari, McLaren, or otherwise. It is extremely unlikely that nowadays a company who make this sort of cars can get the basics wrong, what with the amount of analysis, tire data and simulation they can run. The "basics" are probably all there and pretty optimized. But how much to filter to the drivers, to "help" them and to extract the maximum performance from the car, is left to the myriad of electronics nannies(ESP, TCS) or otherwise(semi-active suspension, electronically controlled diff). The pure performance side of the equation is easy, to make something as fast as it can go, it's a set goal, with measurable results. The subjective tuning is the tricky part, and that requires years of customer feedback and experienced development guys. And I think the crux of what McLaren might be suffering is the latter. Brake-diff may well be something from that. Its inconceivable that they will choose something like that on cost ground, for a $200+k car. They must genuinely believe its better performance wise, and it likely is. If you think about the compromise of a LSD, any slippage left to right will cause the diff to lock up and potentially yaw the car. Uneven surface, broken pavement, dusty environment. The car can pull left or right on a perfectly straight road if that were the road its driving on. Think Focus RS MK1. A brake actuated version won't suffer that, as it is programmed to know if you are going straight, or you are actually turning. This sounds all fine and dandy, until your goal is not driving as fast as it can go anymore. Hooning, as it were.....

Undeniably, I have to agree again. But that wasn't my point, my point isn't that they get the basics right (are there only one set of basic parameters that are right, or is there more than one?), but that because some are comparing it to the Ferrari, McLaren is putting the car on the computer and turning up the volume (for instance) up to 11. A turbo V8 should feel different from a high revving normally apsirated V8, not the same because it is "requested". If they wanted to make feel like a Ferrari, then make one not a computer-Ferrarised car with McLaren solutions...

Badsight, all I am saying is McLaren or Ferrari, both experiences are manufactured. Ferrari is just as computerized as McLaren. The fault is not in that, but in the ultimate execution, it is ultimately, the concept of "fun" between the Ferrari R&D guys, vs McLaren's.....

That's precisely point. And what's wrong with one being more relaxed and grandtourerish and the other sportier and more radical? Why do they have to feel exactly the same?

[RacingManiac]

Ultimately its up to the buyer to decide which approach suits them. For the great majority I am sure, the core experience of "hey look, I got a [insert name here]" and "watch me do this [stomp on the gas and pinned to the seat]" is not that different....

[Dino Scuderia]

It was always reported that most of the owners of McLaren F1's actually drove the car quite a bit so it must not be very hard to live with....I suppose the MP4-12C is the same which is a good thing.

Overall I think supercar owners drive their cars more than ever these days prolly because there's more wealth so they can handle the upkeep, and in general the cars are more plush and reliable.....which is again a good thing.

From what I have read the 458 is fine depending on what suspension setting it's on. (those pesky gizmos again)

Both McLaren and Ferrari's direction works for modern day supercar superiority.

[Kitdy]

Ferrari has a huge leg up - the name.

It will be interesting to look at the comparison of the sales of these two and the Gallardo replacement.

[Dino Scuderia]

Ya, when the new Gallardo comes out, if it's a radical change like the Murcie is to the Aventador, there will be the hyper comparisons happening once again.

In the mean time Lambo is going to debut their new supercar at Frankfurt...so here we go again!

[capone]

Poor McLaren. This car has been a huge disappointment. They spent all their efforts on numbers and forgot what cars should be. Cars should engage emotions, passion, fun and have a soul. McLaren will never achieve this no matter how much faster they want to make this car as I've read that they are going to go back and tweek this car to address all it's flaws. So it's back to the drawing board for McLaren. Pathetic. No matter what they come up with, I'll always put a Lambo, Ferrari or Porsche in front of a McLaren.

[henk4]

Poor McLaren. This car has been a huge disappointment. They spent all their efforts on numbers and forgot what cars should be. Cars should engage emotions, passion, fun and have a soul. McLaren will never achieve this no matter how much faster they want to make this car as I've read that they are going to go back and tweek this car to address all it's flaws. So it's back to the drawing board for McLaren. Pathetic. No matter what they come up with, I'll always put a Lambo, Ferrari or Porsche in front of a McLaren.

please, can you define what "soul" exactly is? Have you tried the McLaren and did it not produce any fun for you?

[Matra et Alpine]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7WGC1iXS_U&hd=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7WGC1iXS_U&hd=1[/ame]

[NSXType-R]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGlqjCufMY&feature=g-all-u"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGlqjCufMY&feature=g-all-u[/ame]

For anyone interested, there's a walk through of the whole production line.

There's an attention to detail to the build process that is somewhat similar to Apple in my opinion.

I also find it weird that they announce that they do not have robots and then promptly use them for their chassis tolerance testing. They should be using calipers! I don't think they'll be using humans for production forever, but it's nice to see that the automotive sector isn't completely dead in Great Britain.

I'm not sure if TVR is still around, but the only other active wholly British car company with production still in Great Britain might be just Morgan.

[RacingManiac]

CMM machine is not a robot....using caliper would defeat the purpose of trying to be accurate...

I thought Apple's build process is to build stuff in China...

[Sledgehammer]

I'm not sure if TVR is still around, but the only other active wholly British car company with production still in Great Britain might be just Morgan.

Ariel? Noble Automotive?

[RacingManiac]

Also depends one what you define as "wholly British"...McLaren has pretty big Middle-Eastern backing, maybe not to the extent of Aston, but they are not that far off in terms of make-up AFAIK....