Lotus Elise (Series 2) 2001-

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Correct - the Corolla Hatch in Australia is an Auris in both Japan and Europe. Whereas the Corolla Sedan is a Corolla most places.

Despite the badging, they're very different vehicles.

[Ferrer]

I bet that Aygo weights more than the standard car, even without the (inexistent) interior.

Also, the Aygo has 3 cylinders, much less bhp and therefore has a lighter drivetrain and need less cooling. Also, having the engine over the rear requires you to have more weight in pipes and the likes as at least one radiator is going to be over the front, if not more than one. The wheels itself being much larger are going to add a lot of weight compared to the Aygo.
Not only that but the Aygo is also almost 40 cm shorter.

Seriously, I don't see where the problem is.
I could even say that the Aygo si quite heavy given that a larger and better refined Yaris only weight 130kg more.
Talking about the Yaris, opting for the 1.3 liter engines as opposed to the 1.0 liter engine will give you 30 additional kg.

Now consider all the differences between an Elise and an Aygo and tell me again what's wrong with the Elise.

Surely the Elise could weight a bit less, maybe closer to the 800 kg mark than to the 900, but on the other hand even the Aygo could weight much less, given it's just an empty shell with four wheels and bender under the bonnet.
Surely there is a limit where many cars, with similar dimensions and purposes would all weight about the same, and that has to do mainly with safety and the performance you want, safety being what all cars (should) have in common.

So, it's a compromise.

A Lotus should be a no-compromise sportscar, a car where lightness is put above everything else. The Elise has no equipment or interior whatsoever as well, and yes the wheels and the engine are larger than the Aygo, but the Elise has all sorts of weight saving measures and materials. And yet it comes almost 90kg heavier than the cheap city car? This isn't progress.

Cars like the Seat Ibiza, the Renault Megane or the Mazda 6 are getting lighter and yet this new Lotus, with engine 200cc smaller than the outgoing model actually has increased weight by 16kg. Any other car could be forgiven. But not a Lotus.

EDIT And furthemore it's getting uglier...

[Revo]

Ferrer, before you go on with your daft statements here, are you comparing comparable things?

Toyota Aygo 1,0 dry weight is 800 kg, kerb weight is 905 kg. [source]

Unfortunately Lotus press release doesn't specify what exactly weighs 876 kg, I suspect that is kerb weight according to EU standard however. Pre-facelift entry level Lotus Elise dry weight is 710 kg, kerb weight is 756 kg [source]. I seriously doubt that Elise has put on extra 100 kgs with the facelift and smaller engine just like that.

[Ferrer]

Ferrer, before you go on with your daft statements here, are you comparing comparable things?

Toyota Aygo 1,0 dry weight is 800 kg, kerb weight is 905 kg. [source]

Unfortunately Lotus press release doesn't specify what exactly weighs 876 kg, I suspect that is kerb weight according to EU standard however. Pre-facelift entry level Lotus Elise dry weight is 710 kg, kerb weight is 756 kg [source]. I seriously doubt that Elise has put on extra 100 kgs with the facelift and smaller engine just like that.

The info I have is 860kg kerb weight for the pre-facelift 1.8 litre Elise S, 935kg EU weight. For this it's 876kg kerb weight, 951kg EU weight (I assume). For the Aygo it's 790kg kerb, 865kg EU.

Sources: www.km77.com and www.carfolio.com

[Revo]

Howcome there is a difference of exactly 75 kg between all the dry/kerb weight figures in your last post?

[Ferrer]

Howcome there is a difference of exactly 75 kg between all the dry/kerb weight figures in your last post?

Sorry, confusion of terms. First figure is kerb weight and second is the EU standard.

Corrected the old post.

[LeonOfTheDead]

So, it's a compromise.

Didn't say that.

A Lotus should be a no-compromise sportscar, a car where lightness is put above everything else. The Elise has no equipment or interior whatsoever as well, and yes the wheels and the engine are larger than the Aygo, but the Elise has all sorts of weight saving measures and materials. And yet it comes almost 90kg heavier than the cheap city car? This isn't progress.

Once again, the Aygo is considerably smaller, and its inexistent performance allows it to save a lot of weight, like with wheels and brakes.
The two cars aren't really comparable.
The simple fact that wheels and engine are larger is enough to justify the difference, and the Elise, albeit being a lightweight car, doesn't have all sort of weight saving measures (forget them for 40k € or slightly more) and it does have equipments, heck, it even has cruise control now.

Cars like the Seat Ibiza, the Renault Megane or the Mazda 6 are getting lighter and yet this new Lotus, with engine 200cc smaller than the outgoing model actually has increased weight by 16kg. Any other car could be forgiven. But not a Lotus.

Just checked the Ibiza and Polo, and they aren't that light. Surely not so light if compared to their previous models from 15 years ago.
Also, as I previously said, there is a minimum level of weight under which none car can go. The chassis itself is always there, and it doesn't matter how small the car is, the size of the cockpit can't be smaller than a certain figure (like smaller than what it is on an Elise) of instance, while it's definitely easier to save weight in larger cars, especially when their previous models weren't designed to be light in first place.

Consider this, VW is so proud to have the new Touareg lighter than the former by about 200 kg, pointless figure without a detailed list of what changed and what's lighter, but are we sure they put enough effort to make the first gen light in first place?
Like, it shouldn't be difficult to save 1.000 kg on a second gen Hummer H2 given the first gen wasn't designed with "weight" as a priority (or maybe yes...).
Want to save some weight from a standard car? Drop sound deadening stuff, use less seats stuffing, adopt aluminum body panels, and so on.
Can you do that on a car with a plastic body, an aluminum chassis, thin seats and no sound deadening at all?

Consider how light an Ariel is. Then consider how many parts are missing before of having an Elise (and no, not only the body is missing) and once again think if the Elise is really heavy.

The original Elise from the 1996 was a bare bone car, no doubt. Now it has larger engines, more equipment, but basically the same chassis.
How could it be lighter?
Perhaps with a completely new car, some kg could be saved, we could assume, but not right now.

[Ferrer]

The original Elise from the 1996 was a bare bone car, no doubt. Now it has larger engines, more equipment, but basically the same chassis.
How could it be lighter?
Perhaps with a completely new car, some kg could be saved, we could assume, but not right now.

Well then that's the problem. It's a bloody Lotus Elise, you don't need all sorts of gizmos. Now as you know, we have a Delta. It has all sorts of gizmos, like cruise control, automatic headlamps, automatic wipers, electric windows, the lot. As a result it weights a million. But that's fine because it's a sort of tall MPVish Grand Tourer with, let's be honest, limited dynamic capabilities.

But in a Lotus Elise you don't need any of that. When you are on a twisty mountain road, which is the natural Elise habitat, everything you need is all that enhances the driving experience. And lightness does just that. Cruise control or electric don't, and therefore are out of place in a car like an Elise. The 670kg original car is the one we should be developped, no making the Elise a sort of uncomfortable GT. In anycase there are other Lotuses more suited to that role.

[Revo]

Sorry, confusion of terms. First figure is kerb weight and second is the EU standard.

Corrected the old post.

Here we are then. You have numbers that show Elise approx. 100kg heavier than Aygo, I got numbers that show the opposite. Anything is provable with statistics.

[Ferrer]

Here we are then. You have numbers that show Elise approx. 100kg heavier than Aygo, I got numbers that show the opposite. Anything is provable with statistics.

Thing is you don't need it cruise control in an Elise.

[LeonOfTheDead]

The fact that you don't need all that leather on an Elise, the cruise control or other equipments is from an ideal point of view. Because in that scenario you wouldn't sell enough cars. Indeed I think I saw about a couple of first gen Elise, while I saw many of the second gen, because even if it is no S-Class it's much more usable than before, and it's something buyers appreciate and appreciated when introduced.

I'd probably be very happy with a bare bone Elise, but I'd also be happy with an Ariel.
Point is I wouldn't be the typical customer.

Now don't say the buyers shouldn't be considered because they are the reason why cars are designed, otherwise you can make an Elise out of paper, but it would have no market.
An Elise it's the lower end in terms of weight on the market, kit cars or extreme trackday cars excluded. If that weight is too much for you than you should consider die cast models because that's what cars are made about, weight. Some of them weight too much, some not.
How can you say the Elise is heavy, I mean, what's the parameter to say that?
Judging by nowadays cars, it isn't at all, and based on 15 years ago cars it isn't either.
Lotus used a an aluminum chassis when many were still using steel, while now many car makers moved towards an aluminum chassis so that's another reason why others can save weight while Lotus can't. Perhaps they could make a carbon fiber tub for the Elise, not for this price though.

Until someone will sell a car similar to the Elise in today's market but which weights considerably less, I don't see any problem with it.
Actually, I'm happy it now has a smaller engine.
Note that a smaller displacement do very few in terms of weight given the engine has the same layout (4 cylinders) and power, therefore probably also similar thermal requirements, as in cooling and the likes.
On the other hand it helps saving fuel and emissions, which is nice even if you don't care about being green or stuff like that.

[Ferrer]

Is it really going to be usable? Some leather, electric windows and cruise control still won't disguise the fact that the Elise is at heart a no-compromise, impractical, uncomfortable sportscar. With its high sills it's difficult to get in and out, I doubt there's much visibility and the boot must be inexistent. Not too mention that being a targe-roofed it's probably going to be quite noisy. Do you want a useable sportscar? Buy a Mazda MX-5. Or if you want to stay within Lotus, an Europa or an Evora.

I doubt any Elise costumer buys it for its practicality, useability or its gizmos. On that basis it might as well be as focused as possible, and therefore as light as possible. In this particular case I think that most of its costumer base will even agree with us, so they aren't really the problem.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Is it really going to be usable? Some leather, electric windows and cruise control still won't disguise the fact that the Elise is at heart a no-compromise, impractical, uncomfortable sportscar. With its high sills it's difficult to get in and out, I doubt there's much visibility and the boot must be inexistent. Not too mention that being a targe-roofed it's probably going to be quite noisy. Do you want a useable sportscar? Buy a Mazda MX-5. Or if you want to stay within Lotus, an Europa or an Evora.

I doubt any Elise costumer buys it for its practicality, useability or its gizmos. On that basis it might as well be as focused as possible, and therefore as light as possible. In this particular case I think that most of its costumer base will even agree with us, so they aren't really the problem.

It isn't "usable", just more usable than the first Elise.
The MX-5 argument is silly. Why should I buy something much heavier, slower and less intriguing?! Especially given the present MX-5.
Buyers don't buy the Elise because it's comfortable car. They buy the Elise because it's almost as fast as a Caterham (within the limits achievable by enthusiast drivers), just the Elise is an actual car and not a trap. When it was warmer I used to see a Caterham on a daily basis, and that's not a car, its a go-kart, just louder and wider. The guy who owned the Mustang near the gf's house bought it. And the Mustang seems to be gone now. Digressing.

When Lotus started "feeding" the Elise, the Europa and the Evora weren't on the market, yet buyers appreciated much more the "heavier" second gen Elise than the first. Guess why?
And guess why Lotus doesn't sell an Elise with no interior or equipments at all? Because no one would buy them.
I'd be curious to know how many bare bone versions of the RS car Renault sells, not considering those converted for track purposes.
Heck, people were complaining when Honda wasn't offering the climate control on the previous gen Civic Type R to save weight.

On the other hand we are focusing a bit too much on the extra features of the car, while perhaps that's not the only point.
Considering the chassis is 15 years old, perhaps it also required some extra measures to make it stiff enough to pass more recent crash tests. Simply adding a beam in the sills to protect the driver in side crashed, and another beam in the A-pillars to help during rollovers would result in 30 kg if not more of weight.
Perhaps it's the Toyota engines that aren't as light as the old Rover units, perhaps it's the gearbox, and perhaps even if they aren't as light as they used to be, they are probably more reliable or more efficient.
Last year Lotus was the greenest brand available in the States. A pointless statement, but which probably helped selling more car than saying "my car weight 800 kg and not 850 kg or more, in a market where hatches weights 1.100 kg if you are very lucky".

Lotus knows that being a light sportscars maker is its image, so if the Elise weights even 2.000 kg there is a good chance there is a good reason for that.
The Evora was at first marked as desperately heavy, yet it proved to be a remarkable sportscar (not referring to the EVO car of the year award). Surely when you look at it it doesn't seem light "enough", but then consider how larger it is, from where it's engine come from and compare it to the very Elise, and it seems also fine.

15 years ago basically only Lotus was offering such a lightweight car, or more specifically, such weight saving ideas. Now they are all doing that, so all at once the Elise seems heavy, but it isn't.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Just checked the service manual for the first gen Elise.
Unladen weight (with full fuel tank) was 755 kg for the base model, 770 kg for the 111S version.
Also fuel consumption was 7.1 l/100 km with 168 g/km of CO2, so fuel consumption is down nearly 15%, CO2 is down only 8% but with a power increase of 15%.

The Exige had an unladen weight of 785 kg, the 340R 701 kg.

With a fuel tank of 36.4 liters, and petrol's specific weight of 0,7 kg, that means the weight of the Elise with no fuel was 730 kg or thereabouts.

EDIT:
from the service manual of the Elise S2, its unladen weight was 774 kg, but with a fuel tank of 32 liters, that equals to a weight with no fuel of 753 kg or thereabout. So it was 23 kg heavier.
Ironically this version with the 1.8 liter engine worth 120 bhp, had an average fuel consumption of 7.7 l/100 km, and a CO2 emission of 183 g/km. So worse than both the first and the third gen.

[LeonOfTheDead]

It appears that the 876 kg figure s once again the unladen weight.
With a fuel tank of 40 liters, it makes the no fuel weight of the new Elise 848 kg.
I don't know if the other liquids are now present in larger quantities to further differentiate the weight by some kg though.
Between the S1 and the S2 there were no differences in this aspect, but I found that the addition of climate control not only adds weight in the form of the compressor and unit itself, but also 0.85 kg of refrigerant is needed.