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Thread: Diesel cars in America

  1. #106
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    I heard an interesting thing from my cousin. My uncle (his dad) is currently stationed in Afghanistan. One of the mechanics told him to mix 2 quarts of ATF per tank into their HUMVEES (which use a lightly modified Duramax diesel). He claims this improves engine economy and performance. My cousin then mixed in ATF into the fuel of his 1991 F350 7.3 Diesel. Before, he had added a garret turbo and bigger Bosche injectors, so the engine smoked and rumbled quite a bit. My cousin has noticed economy has improved to 19MPG (where it was 16 before), the motor doesn't rumble nearly as much, and their is no noticeable smoke. I can tell you first hand that motor smoked and rumbled quite a bit at idle. I cannot know if this will work on a more modern civilian motor with emissions standards as stringent as they are, but it is worth a shot. My cousin claims the Fuel/ATF level should not exceed 3/1, or 1 quart per tank.
    "Don't think your time on bad things
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  2. #107
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    now what does ATF stand for??
    Last edited by henk4; 11-14-2011 at 02:46 PM.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  3. #108
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    Jet Fuel
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Jet Fuel
    thought that was called avgas....anyway, no nearby fuel station here is selling that...
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  5. #110
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    ATF is Automatic Transmission Fluid. Yes, it sounded bizarre to me too, but my cousin swears it works
    "Don't think your time on bad things
    Just float your little mind around"
    Jimi Hendrix

  6. #111
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    Automatic Transmission Fluid, last I checked.

    Edit: Heh, double post. Also apparently piping some propane (I think it was propane..) in through the intake can help with big diesels too.
    Life's too short to drive bad cars.

  7. #112
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    I have heard of propane systems as well, but IMO, that sounds like a more expensive, higher maintenance process. Of course, with turbo diesels, their is also methanol injection, but those are even pricier than propane. I have seen aftermarket systems for both, and they can vary from $100 for a simple propane setup, to close to $500 for a methanol injection system. But dumping a quart of ATF into the fuel is alot cheaper and easier. I wonder if anyone has tested all three methods?
    "Don't think your time on bad things
    Just float your little mind around"
    Jimi Hendrix

  8. #113
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    I fail to see how ATF will fit in the tank...
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  9. #114
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    I don't usually post here anymore but the fundamental reason diesels haven't taken off here in the US is our emission standards for diesel passenger cars do not line up with Europe or the rest of the world (they are MUCH stricter). EPA and CARB standards for particulates and NOx emissions exceed the Euro 5 standard currently in place and when Euro 6 comes into play 2014 or so the EPA or CARB (4-5 other US states base their standards off of CARB) will raise the standards even further.

    The only reason BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, etc can afford to sell some diesel models here is they can hide the cost of the extremely complex and expensive emission control devices in their already inflated sticker costs. Chevy or Toyota which already have lower margin on a 1/2 ton pickup truck or a little economy sedan cannot afford to add a diesel particulate filter, DEF fluid reservoir, etc to a diesel engine and sell it in the US at a profit.

    Finally the new emissions equipment is lowering the reliability and increasing the fuel consumption of diesel engines. As many of you all know in order for a particulate filter to work the exhaust gases must be periodically heated up very rapidly to burn off carbon and soot trapped in the filter. Usually manufacturers have done this with post injection (injecting a bit of fuel into the exhaust cycle to heat up the exhaust gases) which decreases fuel efficiency and makes newer engines largely incompatible with renewable diesel substitutes (see here) The problem is unless you drive a diesel like you stole it the filter WILL clog and US consumers will not put up with expensive DPF repairs or replacements. Furthermore Diesel exhaust fluid which is often required cost anywhere from $6-10+/gallon and must be refilled every other oil change which adds to the already higher than gasoline engines maintenance costs.

    TLDR: Our emissions standards are too strict, they eliminate the two main selling points of diesels because of new emissions equipment (reliability and fuel economy), and make it too expensive for most manufacturers to market their diesels in the US.

    If we want diesels we have to lower our standards for a few years to Euro 4 or 5 to establish them as a viable alternative before we jack up the emissions requirements again so consumers can become accustomed to them.

  10. #115
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    welcome back
    I think your judgement on FAP filters is based on old technology. I have two cars both with a filter, and they really do not need to be driven like being stolen. Fuel economy is 15 and 23 km per liter respectively.
    It just seems that when Europe has adapted to the standard that the US is requiring, the US goes one up, so the European have to play catch up again.
    I can't help thinking that the US will do everything to prevent the use of diesel cars jsut because they lack the proper technology to produce them by themselves. And yes, it IS more epxensive to clean the diesel exhaust gasses, but the much better internal efficiency of a diesel engine might really outweigh those costs in economic terms.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    I can't help thinking that the US will do everything to prevent the use of diesel cars jsut because they lack the proper technology to produce them by themselves.
    I disagree that we lack the technology the economy went south and the EPA's emissions standards are so biased towards gasoline engines and hybrids that it is very hard for diesel engines to compete. Back in 07 GM had a new 4.5L V8 diesel that it wanted to use to replace it's huge gas V8s in its trucks and SUVs (read about it here). It met 2010 EPA/CARB requirements (Euro 6) but was shelved during the 2008 crisis. Dodge also had a contract with Cummins to build a light duty diesel that died and the 4.4L V8 diesel that Ford was going to use in it's F150s was killed (although it was revived in some sense and is now used in the new Range Rover TDV8s). Honda pondered selling a diesel accord here which also never happened. Also countless US companies sell diesels abroad in the EU which makes me think they have the technology but our government policies have made it too expensive to sell them here.

    I really doubt diesel will ever take off in large numbers unless the EPA stops raising it's standards to impossible levels and somebody shuts down California's CARB.
    Last edited by MRR; 11-16-2011 at 07:56 AM.

  12. #117
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    The Ford diesel you mention is the V8 version of the PSA/Ford Europe developed V6...and for what it is worth, in Europe the S Class Mercedes is sold with a 2.1 liter 4 cylinder, producing 205 BHP and 500 NM of torque. I very much doubt that US technology is capable of coming up with an engine giving these sort of figures.
    And it is also indicative of technical development that both BMW and Mercedes have stopped using the V8 diesels that they had. Now the sixes, and as said the fours, can do much better with a much greater economy.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    The Ford diesel you mention is the V8 version of the PSA/Ford Europe developed V6...and for what it is worth, in Europe the S Class Mercedes is sold with a 2.1 liter 4 cylinder, producing 205 BHP and 500 NM of torque. I very much doubt that US technology is capable of coming up with an engine giving these sort of figures.
    And it is also indicative of technical development that both BMW and Mercedes have stopped using the V8 diesels that they had. Now the sixes, and as said the fours, can do much better with a much greater economy.
    Remember that like most things automotive "US technology" is both what the companies can do in house and what they can buy. Ferrari's mag dampers are based on US technology. Euro diesels often have US technology (the turbos themselves are often from Honeywell. Conversely, I'm not sure that ANY Ford turbos are "Ford" technology, even the ones in Europe. My understanding is the French did the engineering with Ford as a partner/customer. So even in Europe Ford doesn't have the technology. This sort of tech sharing happens all over the place. If the technology exists in Europe then almost certainly it could be brought into the US market IF the price and emissions are right. It's just that right now in the US the market for small diesel's isn't large enough for most companies to bother with (find any Japanese diesel car in the US). If the market was there even companies without would find a way.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by culver View Post
    Remember that like most things automotive "US technology" is both what the companies can do in house and what they can buy. Ferrari's mag dampers are based on US technology. Euro diesels often have US technology (the turbos themselves are often from Honeywell. Conversely, I'm not sure that ANY Ford turbos are "Ford" technology, even the ones in Europe. My understanding is the French did the engineering with Ford as a partner/customer. So even in Europe Ford doesn't have the technology. This sort of tech sharing happens all over the place. If the technology exists in Europe then almost certainly it could be brought into the US market IF the price and emissions are right. It's just that right now in the US the market for small diesel's isn't large enough for most companies to bother with (find any Japanese diesel car in the US). If the market was there even companies without would find a way.
    People want fuel efficient cars period with rising fuel prices in the states. Emissions laws not technology are really only thing holding it back. Increased cost of diesels and low market demand are just a symptom of the larger emissions issues of selling them here. Ford sells the Fiesta and Focus diesels in Europe but they simply do not meet US emissions requirements.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by culver View Post
    Remember that like most things automotive "US technology" is both what the companies can do in house and what they can buy. Ferrari's mag dampers are based on US technology. Euro diesels often have US technology (the turbos themselves are often from Honeywell. Conversely, I'm not sure that ANY Ford turbos are "Ford" technology, even the ones in Europe. My understanding is the French did the engineering with Ford as a partner/customer. So even in Europe Ford doesn't have the technology. This sort of tech sharing happens all over the place. If the technology exists in Europe then almost certainly it could be brought into the US market IF the price and emissions are right. It's just that right now in the US the market for small diesel's isn't large enough for most companies to bother with (find any Japanese diesel car in the US). If the market was there even companies without would find a way.
    True, and as far as GM technolgoy is concerned, they bought their European diesels from Fiat, (probably dating from the time they were engaged to them) and Isuzu.
    But it seems to be a Catch 22. The US public is not willing to switch to small diesels, because they are unknown (although if you speak with the people who had the opportunity to drive one in Europe, they are generally full of praise) and therefore the companies are not willing to invest in clean technology. And as soon as all diesel cars in Europe meet the Euro-6 standard, the US will demand Euro-7....
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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