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  #31  
Old 10-03-2010, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBrake4Rainbows View Post
However Lotus doesn't want to be a Morgan or even worse, a Bristol - making a unique product that has a miniscule but loyal following. It's a company run to make money, and as such change is necessary.

Part of the reason I brought up the MX-5 is that, while it has changed in terms of body, it's essentially the same vehicle as at conception. This bodes well in the near future, but you get the feeling it can't stay where it is forever, acting as an entity unto itself. Perfection is rarely attained, and furthermore product planners do not believe it exists - otherwise why bother buying another new product.
So what you are actually saying, if I got it right, is that if you don't change the type of cars you make people get tired of them and stop buying them and you disappear?

Well I disagree. The Corvette has been made for more than 50 years now and it still sells well and the same can be said about the 911. Those are, I agree, extremes, but for instance Ferrari has been making front engined V12 berlinettas from the 50's and they haven't changed the receipe either and I don't think we see all them as comercial failure and lazy product planning.

If Lotus did the same, we would regard them as such? I don't think we should. Well executed the traditional Lotus philosophy is as valid as Ferrari's, Porsche's or Corvette's. Just because they are british I don't think they should be viewed as lightweight uncomfortable Bristols, should they decide to stick with tradition.

Tradition can be improved and refined and that doesn't necessarily make cars any worse. If anything I would say that working on traditional-lines is far more difficult than starting from a clean page. It takes a lot more effort to make you cars innovative and modern while staying true to your principle. It's much easier to start all over to get the feeling of novelty.

And that's what Lotus is doing. They aren't aming Lotuses anymore. They will probably be brilliant, and new, and modern and innovative. But they won't be a Lotus.
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Originally Posted by IBrake4Rainbows View Post
Jaguar, if I might make the point, has mass appeal now because it's and in-brand which has deftly maintained history while shirking it at the same time. A masterstroke and something to emulate, I suggest.
And unlike Lotus, they haven't changed their values. They've changed everything to actually stay the same. As I said I would consider that the current Jags are the most enthusiast oriented of the last 10 or 15 years probably.

The new XF is a worthy successor to the Mk2 from the sixties. It blends luxury and performance in a way only Jaguar does and inside it feels really special. And yet it feels new and modern at the same time.

And that in my opinion is Jaguar's genious. They feel like a proper Jaguar but from the 21st century. If there's something that modern Jags demonstrate is that it is possible to stay true to your principles without making your cars feel like they are from the 1930's. Something that, as it turns out, is not what Lotus is doing.

Only bad point in my opinion is that some modern Jags look a bit generic on the otuside (that's you XF).
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  #32  
Old 10-03-2010, 01:09 PM
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I have a feeling Jaguar (and Land Rover) are losing money hand over fist for Tata though.
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  #33  
Old 10-03-2010, 01:17 PM
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I think that since Tata bought JLR they went from red to black briefly, then back to red with the crisis and are now back slightly on the black again, IIRC.
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  #34  
Old 10-04-2010, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
So what you are actually saying, if I got it right, is that if you don't change the type of cars you make people get tired of them and stop buying them and you disappear?
No, thats not what I was saying. Tastes and desires within the market change, and a failure to adapt to those will result in niche appeal only. Morgan haven't really changed in 50 years, Bristol 30. That was my point.

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Well I disagree. The Corvette has been made for more than 50 years now and it still sells well and the same can be said about the 911. Those are, I agree, extremes, but for instance Ferrari has been making front engined V12 berlinettas from the 50's and they haven't changed the receipe either and I don't think we see all them as comercial failure and lazy product planning.
Corvettes also have a larger market, relatively good reliability record, an aftermarket support and parts network, and people who want to buy them - new or old. Lotus has a few blokes with beards who meet at hillclimbs on the weekend for tea and the occasional blat up the hill, provided the electrics are working.

It's that image Lotus need to get away from, and it's painful to imagine, but those sorts of people aren't the ones you market cars to.

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If Lotus did the same, we would regard them as such? I don't think we should. Well executed the traditional Lotus philosophy is as valid as Ferrari's, Porsche's or Corvette's. Just because they are british I don't think they should be viewed as lightweight uncomfortable Bristols, should they decide to stick with tradition.
The philosophy is a brilliant one, but it must also be taken with a current context. Cars aren't built the same way they were during Chapman's era, and to think that you can build a car the same way he did is preposterous. You can take his mantra, but you must find anothe rway.

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Tradition can be improved and refined and that doesn't necessarily make cars any worse. If anything I would say that working on traditional-lines is far more difficult than starting from a clean page. It takes a lot more effort to make you cars innovative and modern while staying true to your principle. It's much easier to start all over to get the feeling of novelty.
Lotus, if I remember correctly, has a tradition of innovation and engineering excellence. I see these vehicles continuing that tradition quite well, if in a different tact to the current iteration of the idea.

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And that's what Lotus is doing. They aren't aming Lotuses anymore. They will probably be brilliant, and new, and modern and innovative. But they won't be a Lotus.
But that's just it - they will be. Lotus means a different thing to a different generation, like Volvo or Mercedes. Hell, even Hyundai. Failure to prepare is preparing to fail, and if Lotus doesn't keep up with the market they'll be priced out or left behind.

Quote:
And unlike Lotus, they haven't changed their values. They've changed everything to actually stay the same. As I said I would consider that the current Jags are the most enthusiast oriented of the last 10 or 15 years probably.
But then you're contradicting yourself. Jaguar say they've changed, and have, but somehow the newer cars are more in keeping with tradition than the existing range? That's like saying new Lotus' will have more in common with the 7 than the Elise.

Quote:
The new XF is a worthy successor to the Mk2 from the sixties. It blends luxury and performance in a way only Jaguar does and inside it feels really special. And yet it feels new and modern at the same time.
A Tradition of modernity. A'la Lotus.

Quote:
And that in my opinion is Jaguar's genious. They feel like a proper Jaguar but from the 21st century. If there's something that modern Jags demonstrate is that it is possible to stay true to your principles without making your cars feel like they are from the 1930's. Something that, as it turns out, is not what Lotus is doing.
I disagree, respectfully, that Lotus aren't keeping their cores. Again this tradition of modernity means different things to different brands, but Lotus are and indeed were an engineering based consortium, and thus had engineering based solutions. this could well be them coming up with a solution that adds some sense to the project as well.

Quote:
Only bad point in my opinion is that some modern Jags look a bit generic on the otuside (that's you XF).
And a comment to be made about the new Lotus' as well.

I don't necessarily think it'll all work for them, but to poo-poo these new Lotus' as not real Lotus' is coming at the problem from the very same way you praise Jaguar with, and thats not making any sense to me.
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  #35  
Old 10-04-2010, 01:03 PM
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Porsche is building the Cayenne, Jaguar makes diesels, Aston Martin revealed the Cygnet, Lamborghini presented the Estoque. Now Lotus is introducing 'heavy' cars.

Although not all of the above examples have reached production, these are all moments in automotive history which hurt me a bit. In the beginning that is.

Surely I fully understand the arguments regarding marques should keep to their traditions, but I think at present day this developments are unavoidable. So I got used to it now.

Last edited by Man of Steel; 10-04-2010 at 01:05 PM.
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  #36  
Old 10-04-2010, 02:01 PM
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Ouch, that thing's hideous. It looks far from what I would have expected a new Elise to look like. Instead, it would be more believable as the new Honda Del Sol concept. Never mind the weight gain, these guys need to get back to the drawing board.
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  #37  
Old 10-04-2010, 03:49 PM
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is that for base models or turbro's? the 964's especially i'd thought to be lighter since the turbo weighs that much.
edit: nvm read henk's link
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  #38  
Old 10-04-2010, 06:42 PM
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is that for base models or turbro's? the 964's especially i'd thought to be lighter since the turbo weighs that much.
edit: nvm read henk's link
In the quote was me saying that they were base 911s...
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  #39  
Old 10-04-2010, 06:47 PM
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yeah but i didn't trust you.
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  #40  
Old 10-05-2010, 11:10 AM
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IB4R, I agree that the engineering solutions employed on this car will be among the best and that this car, and all the other concepts for that matter, could very well turn out to be brilliant. But that's not the point I was trying to make.

You say that the new Jaguar combines tradition and innovation. And fair enough I can indeed agree with that. I could even say that I'm quite a fan of modern Jags. But what Lotus is trying is something entirely different from Jaguar. They are being clearly influenced by innovation, and that's good, but they are completely forgetting tradition and that is what in my opinion makes those cars a bit of a failure at being Lotuses.

Let me put it this way, if Jaguar were trying to pull a Lotus they'd be making mid-engined supercars with 800horsepowers. They might be great cars, but they wouldn't be great Jags.
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  #41  
Old 10-05-2010, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
IB4R, I agree that the engineering solutions employed on this car will be among the best and that this car, and all the other concepts for that matter, could very well turn out to be brilliant. But that's not the point I was trying to make.

You say that the new Jaguar combines tradition and innovation. And fair enough I can indeed agree with that. I could even say that I'm quite a fan of modern Jags. But what Lotus is trying is something entirely different from Jaguar. They are being clearly influenced by innovation, and that's good, but they are completely forgetting tradition and that is what in my opinion makes those cars a bit of a failure at being Lotuses.

Let me put it this way, if Jaguar were trying to pull a Lotus they'd be making mid-engined supercars with 800horsepowers. They might be great cars, but they wouldn't be great Jags.
What you're basically saying is that Lotus wants to become someone else.
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  #42  
Old 10-06-2010, 03:42 AM
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It's was just sad to see these new 'Lotus'. They really missed the point on the this Elise, it's suposed to be a fun, light, young car, now they just want it to be another Boxter, an Elise shouldn't have to be more than 1 tone and never have more than 200bhp, that's what made it fun to drive and kind of a 'kids' car, now it's just another grown up sports car.
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  #43  
Old 10-06-2010, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
IB4R, I agree that the engineering solutions employed on this car will be among the best and that this car, and all the other concepts for that matter, could very well turn out to be brilliant. But that's not the point I was trying to make.

You say that the new Jaguar combines tradition and innovation. And fair enough I can indeed agree with that. I could even say that I'm quite a fan of modern Jags. But what Lotus is trying is something entirely different from Jaguar. They are being clearly influenced by innovation, and that's good, but they are completely forgetting tradition and that is what in my opinion makes those cars a bit of a failure at being Lotuses.
Sometimes the best thing to do to a tradition is reinvent it. I don't really see how they're forgetting history personally, they will still have some of the lightest cars in their class, but I sort of understand what you mean. It's not an expected course of action, and it's for that reason alone it might very well work.

Quote:
Let me put it this way, if Jaguar were trying to pull a Lotus they'd be making mid-engined supercars with 800horsepowers. They might be great cars, but they wouldn't be great Jags.
See the C-XF75 Concept I think.

I don't see it as one being mutually exclusive from the other, personally. If a tradition carries with it a burden that outweighs it's usefulness then surely the most sensible action is to ditch the Tradition?
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  #44  
Old 10-06-2010, 05:35 AM
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The Lotus concepts, Exagon and Sesto all look like they were designed by the same pen.....erm computer.
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  #45  
Old 10-06-2010, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBrake4Rainbows View Post
I don't see it as one being mutually exclusive from the other, personally. If a tradition carries with it a burden that outweighs it's usefulness then surely the most sensible action is to ditch the Tradition?
I don't think tradition outweights anything at Lotus...

In my opinion, what this has to do with is Lotus trying to get market share and revenue. What do people want? Power? Let's give it them. Is weight increasing...? So be it.

Sad, but the market dictates all those changes. The fact that tradition was good (or bad) is pretty much irrelevant.
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