Diesel or petrol?

[henk4]

but have more torque motivating your day, so it's not annoying at all.

I am not complaining
as the great Carroll Shelby once said:
"Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races...".

[LeonOfTheDead]

About the sound, I don't think there are many ordinary cars/engines with a really good sound, being diesel or petrol. Of course the sound of a diesel car isn't comparable to a supercar with ceramic exhausts, but they are also two completely different cars presumingly.
I don't think a 1.6 petrol engine objectively sounds under the bonnet of a Stilo or 308, same goes for their diesel counterpart.
Now if we could consider a diesel V6 from MB and the lovely petrol V6 from Alfa Romeo...

[henk4]

About the sound, I don't think there are many ordinary cars/engines with a really good sound, being diesel or petrol. Of course the sound of a diesel car isn't comparable to a supercar with ceramic exhausts, but they are also two completely different cars presumingly.
I don't think a 1.6 petrol engine objectively sounds under the bonnet of a Stilo or 308, same goes for their diesel counterpart.
Now if we could consider a diesel V6 from MB and the lovely petrol V6 from Alfa Romeo...

there is (justified) increasing social objection against loud vehicles, (not from the drivers, but from those around it)...Most people with less mechanics in their blood will not be able to fully appreciate the sound of the Alfa for what it is, but just consider it to be excessive engine noise, when revved high.

[Ferrer]

spirited drives in a diesel will not require red line revving to get satisfactory forward movement. That 's where you gain in MPG. (problem that many people will call this type of driving not "spirited", because it lacks the emotion of a noisy engine)

I wasn't redlining the Lancia either.

there is (justified) increasing social objection against loud vehicles, (not from the drivers, but from those around it)...Most people with less mechanics in their blood will not be able to fully appreciate the sound of the Alfa for what it is, but just consider it to be excessive engine noise, when revved high.

Keep it quiet in the city, push it on the nountains.

[henk4]

Keep it quiet in the city, push it on the nountains.

we are flatlanders.

[Ferrer]

we are flatlanders.

Push it in local roads where there's no one.

[LeonOfTheDead]

That's why I'm pro hybrids, total silence and zero emissions in overcrowded areas, blast elsewhere.

[henk4]

Push it in local roads where there's no one.

ever been here?

[henk4]

That's why I'm pro hybrids, total silence and zero emissions in overcrowded areas, blast elsewhere.

as a pedestrian or cyclist I like to hear a car coming up behind me. The familiar subtle rattle of a diesel is a much more alerting sound than the wind and tyre noises of an electro-car. (the ability to look over your neck decreases with age...)

[Ferrer]

ever been here?

No. You truly don't have any proper drivers roads?

as a pedestrian or cyclist I like to hear a car coming up behind me. The familiar subtle rattle of a diesel is a much more alerting sound than the wind and tyre noises of an electro-car. (the ability to look over your neck decreases with age...)

I can relate to this. When we tested the Prius, before getting in the car, another Prius came behind us and we didn't notice it. We didn't hear it.

[LeonOfTheDead]

as a pedestrian or cyclist I like to hear a car coming up behind me. The familiar subtle rattle of a diesel is a much more alerting sound than the wind and tyre noises of an electro-car. (the ability to look over your neck decreases with age...)

No. You truly don't have any proper drivers roads?

I can relate to this. When we tested the Prius, before getting in the car, another Prius came behind us and we didn't notice it. We didn't hear it.

So we should all drive screaming Ferrari V12 cars with rpm between 6.000 and 8.000 with the youngest population more and more into screaming iPods, while crossing the street, driving the bicycle and so on.
I can see the point, and I actually think we should pay more attention. A minimum level of sound emitted, even if it's a contradiction with trying to diminish the overall pollution (noises included), could be welcomed, but there is a limit even to what we should do ourselves to save our life.

As a mainly bicycle driver, I'd prefer a cleaner air than an engine alerting me "hey, you can't cross the road without looking back!".
As a car driver, I often can't see the need of an ICE when driving in downtown, without even considering how many energy we waste accelerating and braking when not necessary. Just put the gearbox into neutral at 60 km/h and you'll see where you could go, driving in town. Presumingly there will be the need to stop or brake for a pedestrian crossing or a light crossing before you'll reach a too low speed in many cases.We can talk about the sound, but I think hybrids are a quite sensible choice right now.
NOT saying a Prius is better than anything else, just talking about the idea behind hybrid cars, no consideration on their costs, political implications and so on.

[Ferrer]

In the city yes hybrids are nice. The use less fuel than diesels and the silence, while as we discussed has some safety implications, is nice. However in the city you need a small car and yet most hybrids are big family cars or SUVs, which kind of contradicts the point.

And when you get on the open road, at the speeds that are driven in Europe, hybrids are soundly thrashed by diesels. I can see the point of hybrid but not as it is now. And in any case, why make petrol powered hybrids? If you really want to save money what you want is a diesel-powered hybrid.

[LeonOfTheDead]

In the city yes hybrids are nice. The use less fuel than diesels and the silence, while as we discussed has some safety implications, is nice. However in the city you need a small car and yet most hybrids are big family cars or SUVs, which kind of contradicts the point.

And when you get on the open road, at the speeds that are driven in Europe, hybrids are soundly thrashed by diesels. I can see the point of hybrid but not as it is now. And in any case, why make petrol powered hybrids? If you really want to save money what you want is a diesel-powered hybrid.

Simply because there is few room left in the engine bay of a diesel powered car. Also a diesel engine is already heavier than a petrol one. This are the first reasons I can think of. Than there is also the fact of diluting the innovations, why to sell diesel hybrids when a petrol diesel already provides an improvement?

Right now hybrids are surely a minor part of the market and aren't enough considered both buy the makers and the owners (not considering go-gree-maniacs).
Personally, I can't wait for the first Fisker Karma to be properly reviewed.

[wwgkd]

I think in this hybrid diesel dabate you're missing a couple key points.

1. Diesels are expensive, and hybrids are expensive, so diesel electric hybrids, while the most effecient, are also the most expensive (in their class.) That's why you don't see more of them right now.

2. Hybrids have the battery problem. Very messy to make and just as bad to dispose of. Those battery packs only last 100,000 miles right now and are almost as hard to dispose of as nuclear waste (ask japan about that, they're pretty mad at the us and canada for shipping our old packs back to them.) People think zero emissions in electric mode and completely forget that it's a whole system, no just whats going on when you drive.

[lightweight]

I think in this hybrid diesel dabate you're missing a couple key points.

1. Diesels are expensive, and hybrids are expensive, so diesel electric hybrids, while the most effecient, are also the most expensive (in their class.) That's why you don't see more of them right now.

2. Hybrids have the battery problem. Very messy to make and just as bad to dispose of. Those battery packs only last 100,000 miles right now and are almost as hard to dispose of as nuclear waste (ask japan about that, they're pretty mad at the us and canada for shipping our old packs back to them.) People think zero emissions in electric mode and completely forget that it's a whole system, no just whats going on when you drive.

True. I think what you said highlights a bigger and more extended issue:

Mankind has recently become concerned about the environment and searches for ways to reduce its negative impact. Unfortunately all this effort goes into carbon emissions and does not even mention toxic / nuclear waste disposal.

Given that there is an energy trend in the Western countries towards Nuclear energy generation, such issues must be adressed