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Thread: The Alfa Romeo problem

  1. #1
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    The Alfa Romeo problem

    This year Alfa Romeo turns one hundred years old. This is a big milestone for anyone, but especially for a manufacturer that hasn't turned a profit since... since well... has it ever turned a profit at all?

    Alfa Romeo has had many obscure periods in its long and illustrious history, and at one point it was even owned by the Italian government. The cars were often fast and flashy, but also sometimes not as reliable as they could be. And let's be brutally honest no one wants a car that can only be had in lovely rust-brown and has more lights on the dashobard that a full-on christmas tree.

    But in the end there was always a group of lunatics that raved about the singing powerful engines, the magnificent handling, that beatiful bodies or maybe a combination of the three. Even if since the 90's the cars haven't been particularly fast or un-wrong wheel driven, or plainly rebadged Fiats in some cases.

    But apparently there's light at the end of tunnel. Or is it? Since the turn of the century the cars have gotten better and better. Up to the point, that now they rarely break down, or do silly noises when going over bumps, and they even got all sorts of clever new technology that have made them more efficient and greener. Simply, they've improved the quality dramatically.

    The first product of the new Alfa was the 159 family, introduced in 2005. Fast forward five years, and the results is an excellent flop. The 159 did exactly what shouldn't be done, particularly by a brand like Alfa Romeo. It upset the loyalists and it didn't bring anyone from the german panzer wagen camp. The loyalists didn't like it because they were used to screwing back door mirrors as long as their car was characterful, but this was the other way round, and the men in need of compensation didn't like it, because well... it was an Alfa.

    Since then we've gotten two more new cars and things don't seem to be improving for the lunatics. Even if the cars are better than ever. Here's a review for the new Giulietta.

    Alfa Romeo Giulietta 1.4 TB 170 HP full road test car review - BBC Top Gear - BBC Top Gear

    So, who wants an Alfa Romeo these days? No one apparently. It takes a special person to buy a special car, but what if the car isn't all that special anymore?
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  2. #2
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    and more of a problem could be that the new CEO Harald Wester has announced that production will increase from 100000 currently to half a million in four years from now....this will include a new Giulia and two SUV type vehicles.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  3. #3
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    I won't be holding my breath. Especially when the goal was just 300 grand a couple of years ago.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  4. #4
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    and to answer your question, lease companies prefer the use of cars that do not depreciate so fast, and because lease companies prefer those cars they do not depreciate so fast.......and as an increasing number of cars are being used under lease conditions, the market for more extraordinary or extravagant cars becomes increasingly smaller. Such cars only make sense if you buy them new, and drive them for the rest of their technical life. The current mass market is dominated by the beancounters, and Alfas are small beans.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  5. #5
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    Alfa Romeo is returning to the American market,thatīs why they are optimistic to sell far more cars in the future.
    Considered the fact,that quality and technology have improved,itīs not too far of the radar.

  6. #6
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    I think this whole review is failed in its main argument. Who buy cars.

    First of all, the 164 from 23 years ago was just rock solid. Second, the 156 was magnificent to drive and a good reliable car too. Third, the 159 is built up to German standards (requested by those who were buying the 156 a few years before), and yet it handles marvelously. It's more comfortable than the Croma, goes faster and feels alive too.

    Having unfortunately experienced both, the Croma is much like a Passat. A large comfortable boat (by European standards, sort of), and a few more. Not interesting to drive, not funny, and fast enough with mid level engines. The 159 on the other hand is asking for a late braking while approaching a turn so that the tail will slide just to make you smile a bit more. And then you are asking yourself why you chose the 1.9 diesel engine instead of the 2.4 while exiting the turn flooring the accelerator.

    People don't buy them, not as much as I'd like but that doesn't mean something is wrong with the car except that it isn't German or continuously and blindly praised by some short minded and bored journalist. And I don't even want to talk about the premium thing, just plain pointless.

    Extremely often it doesn't matter how good a car is, all that does matter is what people think to know about it.
    I know a few guys which were sort of insulting a friend's Opel Tigra, because it was supposedly too light (yeah, wtf) and dangerous, while their 206s were just plain awesome, because of two WRC titles. Yeah, wtf at its finest.
    Regardless of the fact that both cars weighted just a bit less than 1.000 kg, or that the Tigra won many races if not championships in ice rallying events, or even that the 206 CC one of them owned at the time was about the worst car to handle in extreme/dangerous situations in that period and class, do we think for a second their opinions were reliable? Of course not, as they didn't know what they were talking about, let alone know at least a couple of things about cars.

    On the other hand they were and presumingly still are owners and buyers of cars, and they more than likely stand for the most buyers out there. We, as enthusiasts, are a minority report.
    As with almost all modern objects and possessions, there are people truly in love with them, people who know or try to know as much as they can about that specific object. Some of these products though are bought and used also by people who just need them, or think they do, and they don't go trough the hassle of knowing everything that is good to know before of buying and using them. They are in many cases, and specifically in this case, the largest market.

    So the Alfa Romeo problem is probably a simple one: us.

    Because of us, they can't just go out there and built a Passat, a Golf or a Touareg, because we'd just kill'em. It takes them much more time and middle steps to reach that sort of targets, which they sort of need to reach, because of the rest of the market which is what feed them.

    The 156 was just awesome, really. Cheap, fast, reliable, good looking. It sold well, but not enough. It wasn't a mainstream car, so only enthusiasts bought them or thereabouts. At the same time they kept asking for more equipments, luxury, stuff and so on. Here you go, this is the 159.

    FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU, they said, it's too German, it's too heavy, too comfortable, no matter if it's exactly what I asked you yesterday.

    Saying that buyers shouldn't be considered when designing a car won't solve anything.
    But, as Pieter once told me waiting under the Italian sun and talking about a completely different car, "you have to feed customers slowly".
    True words, which means, you have to educate customers and don't let them pretend things they don't even know about.

    As far as I see things, Alfa (and Maserati) are heading in the right direction, except the two SUV things, which I'm afraid can't be avoided.
    Regardless of which wheels are pushing, or pulling, the car.
    KFL Racing Enterprises - Kicking your ass since 2008

    *cough* http://theitalianjunkyard.blogspot.com/ *cough*

  7. #7
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    Alfa is just fine!
    If they wouldnīt have turned any profit in,the company wouldnīt be around any more.Sure,the new Gulia looks a little bit dull...hell,I just wait for the next face lift
    I really hope them the best for their return to the American market.Auto tester here where already very positive about it

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead View Post
    I think this whole review is failed in its main argument. Who buy cars.

    First of all, the 164 from 23 years ago was just rock solid. Second, the 156 was magnificent to drive and a good reliable car too. Third, the 159 is built up to German standards (requested by those who were buying the 156 a few years before), and yet it handles marvelously. It's more comfortable than the Croma, goes faster and feels alive too.

    Having unfortunately experienced both, the Croma is much like a Passat. A large comfortable boat (by European standards, sort of), and a few more. Not interesting to drive, not funny, and fast enough with mid level engines. The 159 on the other hand is asking for a late braking while approaching a turn so that the tail will slide just to make you smile a bit more. And then you are asking yourself why you chose the 1.9 diesel engine instead of the 2.4 while exiting the turn flooring the accelerator.

    People don't buy them, not as much as I'd like but that doesn't mean something is wrong with the car except that it isn't German or continuously and blindly praised by some short minded and bored journalist. And I don't even want to talk about the premium thing, just plain pointless.

    Extremely often it doesn't matter how good a car is, all that does matter is what people think to know about it.
    I know a few guys which were sort of insulting a friend's Opel Tigra, because it was supposedly too light (yeah, wtf) and dangerous, while their 206s were just plain awesome, because of two WRC titles. Yeah, wtf at its finest.
    Regardless of the fact that both cars weighted just a bit less than 1.000 kg, or that the Tigra won many races if not championships in ice rallying events, or even that the 206 CC one of them owned at the time was about the worst car to handle in extreme/dangerous situations in that period and class, do we think for a second their opinions were reliable? Of course not, as they didn't know what they were talking about, let alone know at least a couple of things about cars.

    On the other hand they were and presumingly still are owners and buyers of cars, and they more than likely stand for the most buyers out there. We, as enthusiasts, are a minority report.
    As with almost all modern objects and possessions, there are people truly in love with them, people who know or try to know as much as they can about that specific object. Some of these products though are bought and used also by people who just need them, or think they do, and they don't go trough the hassle of knowing everything that is good to know before of buying and using them. They are in many cases, and specifically in this case, the largest market.

    So the Alfa Romeo problem is probably a simple one: us.

    Because of us, they can't just go out there and built a Passat, a Golf or a Touareg, because we'd just kill'em. It takes them much more time and middle steps to reach that sort of targets, which they sort of need to reach, because of the rest of the market which is what feed them.

    The 156 was just awesome, really. Cheap, fast, reliable, good looking. It sold well, but not enough. It wasn't a mainstream car, so only enthusiasts bought them or thereabouts. At the same time they kept asking for more equipments, luxury, stuff and so on. Here you go, this is the 159.

    FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU, they said, it's too German, it's too heavy, too comfortable, no matter if it's exactly what I asked you yesterday.

    Saying that buyers shouldn't be considered when designing a car won't solve anything.
    But, as Pieter once told me waiting under the Italian sun and talking about a completely different car, "you have to feed customers slowly".
    True words, which means, you have to educate customers and don't let them pretend things they don't even know about.

    As far as I see things, Alfa (and Maserati) are heading in the right direction, except the two SUV things, which I'm afraid can't be avoided.
    Regardless of which wheels are pushing, or pulling, the car.
    I think that you totally got the point. Many people marvel at them, but if you ask them if they would buy one, most of them would simply say "No". And if you ask why, you are likely to get answers as "bad reliability", "not practical enough" and so on. But the core problem is another one: Alfa is trying to cover a spot that has been occupied by other carmakers like BMW (in short, some sort of sporty premium cars). But Alfa doesn't have the reputation to do this at the moment. Even if it HAS changed, many people still think that italian cars may have loads of charisma and passion, but over all bad build quality. If have to admit, even i wouldn't buy a brand new Alfa, but i can't really figure out why. Seems ton be some sort of illness.
    FIXIE EVOLVED INTO SMALL MOTORBIKE! Now driving a Simson KR51 <3

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  9. #9
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    The remedy is driving one.
    I'm still considering why we went on for saving just a few grands with the Croma instead of buying the 159 my folk has .
    KFL Racing Enterprises - Kicking your ass since 2008

    *cough* http://theitalianjunkyard.blogspot.com/ *cough*

  10. #10
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    Passion is all well and good, but trying to beat the Germans at their own game will never, ever work.

    What Alfa has is a point of difference - an appeal to free thinking individuals or those who see their brand as an unsung hero. The problem is that image is incredibly difficult to overcome - and with passion comes temperamental cars in the customers mind.

    The problem is most certainly in the mind of the customer, but it is also in the cars themselves. the customer comes into the purchase with an expectation of flimsy quality and unreliablity, and until the cars match their desire for both elements - passion and dependability - the customer will choose one of the other. The recent Grey efforts of Alfa Romeo will not suffice.

    The Gilulietta is by all accounts near enough to a Golf or Focus to be considered a serious rival, but whats it's point of difference? Fresh styling? well it's actually a bit fugly from my perspective, and the French are doing brash nouveau riche styling better than the italians at the moment.

    The Packaging? well it's good, but there are certainly better models out there.

    The drive? well, by most reports it's good, but critically missing a certain joie de vivre that comes from pushing your brand as passionate motoring.

    The compromises people are willing to make are astounding if they feel as though they are being rewarded either with the drive or with the experience. By appealing to all comers Alfa Romeo has lost sight of the core of it's business - You don't buy an Alfa Romeo as a family car in the first breath, you justify it's purchase because it can fit your family, and buy it because it makes you feel alive.

    Once that message is received, success will be had.
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  11. #11
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    I'd buy an Alfa, if I was buying that sort of vehicle.

    I'm not but.
    Life's too short to drive bad cars.

  12. #12
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    To be honest, many reviews also claimed the 159 is heavy and slow, and lacking that joie de vivre to quote IB4R. I for one find it brilliant, so I'm definitely not paying attention to reviews.

    Trying to appeal to a wider portfolio of customers is a ricky business indeed, but BMW didn't suffer from that, for instance, so I can why Alfa did it too. And it was customers asking for something "more", and those buying Alfas for what they were just weren't enough.

    Eventually, my friend's 159 (estate) is a family vehicle, and his father is by no means a gear head. There is also a Scenic in the family, but that's the horse carriage driven by his mother with kids and toys laying around.
    KFL Racing Enterprises - Kicking your ass since 2008

    *cough* http://theitalianjunkyard.blogspot.com/ *cough*

  13. #13
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    There is a difference between appealing to a wider market and stretching yourself too thin. BMW has other issues to contend with - such as foolishly stretching to include markets where it's brand makes little sense, and is competing purely for profit.

    I've no doubt the 159 is a lovely vehicle, but the point is it's false. Trying to be at once Italian and Germanic means it ends up being neither and leaves the consumer with mixed messages.

    There is a lot to be said about clarity of thought and purpose.
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  14. #14
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    I still can't see a problem with their logica. Would anyone buy another 156, with less comforts and space, but more focused on the dynamics? No, they wouldn't.
    So, would they buy a car like those they already buy from other companies, just funnier to drive according to our principles? Maybe.
    It isn't a matter of what people expects from it because it's an Alfa or because it's Italian.
    If it was a BMW, I mean only with a different badge, it wouldn't have been an actual BMW but it would have definitely sell much more.

    The two generation of the 3 Series Compact were awful in many details, with the second having at least improved in the quality department. Yet people went crazy with the 1 Series even before it proved itself to be a good product.

    So it's not a matter of what a car is or pretend to be, it's about what people think and what they know.
    Regarding Alfa, they are quite confused and if there is something wrong with how Alfa is handled, is that they are not trying to teach potential customers on what it should be right or expected from Alfa but they keep on blindly listen to the market and basically emulate other makers, rather than establish themselves as a specific company.

    Jaguar had a similar problem, but now I believe they are completely on the right path.
    KFL Racing Enterprises - Kicking your ass since 2008

    *cough* http://theitalianjunkyard.blogspot.com/ *cough*

  15. #15
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    But thats just it. It DOES matter what people expect because you either conform to those expectations and disappoint customers or you come up with something better - not coming up with something else that confuses and ultimately disappoints the customer.

    Jaguar is a unique case where they've had to shake the very core of their business (and risk the farm, essentially) by realigning what the brand stands for - becoming cool britannia as opposed to To the Manor born. Alfa Romeo could very well do the same thing on an Italian scale, but they've always been more egalitarian than Jaguar, and this is the problem.

    Alfa Romeo have attempted a push upmarket into a crowded section of the world, where, lets be brutally honest, other manufacturers are doing sporty better, while mixing in other virtues such as shutline perfection.

    By focusing on what makes Alfa the better choice - a Value proposition that encourages individuality while having a real point of difference cost wise - the market becomes less 3 series and more Octavia - a battle ground they can surely win.
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