The Alfa Romeo problem

[LeonOfTheDead]

Can't really see how the Octavia came out. As far as I see it, it's just a cheap sedan, and a pretty good one too.
If I have to go within the "individuality" theme I'd rather go pretty much with everything which is German, from the Frenches to Saab, Volvo and all the other cars that, at least over here, aren't the obvious safe choice.
Which is sort of the same with Jaguar, except the market position.
Citroen is surely doing the design part very well, Ford has dramatically improved its interior quality, Volvos aren't just squared tanks now, yet they all struggle compared to Volkswagen. Even Opel isn't doing oh so well with everything larger than the Astra, which is weird, it's German after all. Too cheap possibly.


My point about what people expect, want, buy is that it was them to ask for this Alfa Romeo, but they are not buying it.

[Revo]

I took me about ten seconds of driving to fall in love with the 159.

Recently, in Switzerland, I saw a new Giulietta for few seconds or so - again, I fell in love immediately.

But, according to general opinion, these are supposed to be dull and passionless products from a confused maker?

For me, it is certainly not Alfa Romeo that has a problem. The problem is ridiculous need to stereotype everything.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I took me about ten seconds of driving to fall in love with the 159.

Recently, in Switzerland, I saw a new Giulietta for few seconds or so - again, I fell in love immediately.

But, according to general opinion, these are supposed to be dull and passionless products from a confused maker?

For me, it is certainly not Alfa Romeo that has a problem. The problem is ridiculous need to stereotype everything.

This man, he speaks the truth, I mean, for real!

[Dino Scuderia]

Can't really see how the Octavia came out. As far as I see it, it's just a cheap sedan, and a pretty good one too.
If I have to go within the "individuality" theme I'd rather go pretty much with everything which is German, from the Frenches to Saab, Volvo and all the other cars that, at least over here, aren't the obvious safe choice.
Which is sort of the same with Jaguar, except the market position.
Citroen is surely doing the design part very well, Ford has dramatically improved its interior quality, Volvos aren't just squared tanks now, yet they all struggle compared to Volkswagen. Even Opel isn't doing oh so well with everything larger than the Astra, which is weird, it's German after all. Too cheap possibly.


My point about what people expect, want, buy is that it was them to ask for this Alfa Romeo, but they are not buying it.

How much do Alfa Romeo's cost in Italy compared to BMW? How do they compare throughout Europe?

[LeonOfTheDead]

How much do Alfa Romeo's cost in Italy compared to BMW? How do they compare throughout Europe?

This are the cheapest petrol versions for their main models:
Alfa Giulietta: 1.4 liters, turbo, 88 kW, 1.280 kg, 20.500 €
BMW 1 Series: 1.6 liters, 90 kW, 1.255 kg, 24.900 €

Alfa 159: 1.8 liters, turbo, 147 kW, 1.430 kg, 29.000 €
BMW 3 Series: 2.0 liters, 105 kW, 1.360 kg, 31.700 €
A similarly powered 3 Series is the 325i, 160 kW, 38.500 € or the 210i, 125 kW and 33.500 €

Regarding the cheapest diesel versions, all turboed of course:
Alfa Giulietta: 1.6 liters, 77 kW, 1.310 kg, 22.400 €
BMW 1 Series: 2.0 liters, 85 kW, 1.310 lg, 26.700 kg

Alfa 159: 1.9 liters, 88 kW, 1.525 kg, 27.100 €
BMW 3 Series: 2.0 liters, 85kW, 1.400 kg, 30.100 €

As far as options are considered, entry level BMWs aren't well equipped generally as many German cars as well, while Alfas are pretty much ready to go if you don't want larger wheels, sat nav or full leather interior etc...

[SGG]

The Alfa Diesels are very good!Absolut competetive!

[Commodore GS/E]

As i said before, Alfa's improvements on quality (and pretty much everything else) aren't widely known. It's a long and slow process to change a company's public reception. Just like Fiat. But they have the advantage that they are cheap.

[Ferrer]

Damiano, I agree with you. Or rather, I would if weren't talking about Alfa Romeo. Because Alfa Romeo does not comply with the same rules everybody else does.

In the Alfa Romeo case, better doesn't necessarily mean more sales or more appreciation from the general public. An Alfa Romeo that doesn't make you go week in the knees, or excite you, is as useless as an unreliable Toyota. If Toyota tried to go all passionate it'd be very well, but that's not what we want from it, and we wouldn't be buying it, for it.

Likeiwse, I want an Alfa Romeo. But I wanted for the operatic tunes from the exhausts, the chromed inlet pipes in the engine and the impossibly gorgeus curves in the bodywork. If it's reliable, then all the better, it's a bonus, but Alfa Romeo can't afford to trade character for efficiency because that's not what their costumer base wants.

It's curious because of all the car manufacturers in the world, Alfa Romeo has to be one that's driven the most by enthusiasts, because enthusiasts are mostly its customer base. Trying to shift that will only end in tears most probably, as normal people simply aren't interested in being part of Alfa Romeo's costumer base. I would even say that since there's hardly any badge whoring in it, it's far more enthusiat-drive than the traditional heavyweights, like Ferrari, Porsche, Maserati or Aston Martin.

[f6fhellcat13]

Very good point, Ferrer.
Among the general population Ferrari, Porsche, Maserati, and Aston Martin are the status symbol cars. Whereas Alfas are a "status"(different meaning than above) symbol among enthusiasts.

Personally, I don't find the Giulietta to be all that special, but obviously I can't have an experience like Revo's and see one on the street, which may or may not change my mind. In the current lineup the only cars that really strike my fancy are the 159 Sportwagon, the Brera, and naturally the 8C.
The Brera, being the ultimate victory of pornographic form over function, is very quintessentially Italian (again, with the stereotypes! ) and is the worse for it.

The 159 is slightly dull, but it is definitely an Alfa, if a slightly muted one. It has sexy styling and handles nicely while also pandering to heathenish Teutonic tastes.

Sure the GT and Brera Spider are dumb, but I think Alfa can be excused for those given what else it has. I am also not a fan of the MiTo.

All this being said; I like about half of Alfa's current range, which really isn't bad for a manufacturer. Sure, it may not be what we tell ourselves we should expect from somebody like Alfa, but these days I'll take it.

Yes, I do have a sense that something is missing, but that is not at all uncommon and certainly isn't a recent phenomenon at Alfa.

[Revo]

More thoughts about Italians adopting German standards.

As long as Fiat Group engineers haven't figured out how to secure floor mats to floor panel, there's really no ground to accuse them of being too German, is there?

[Dino Scuderia]

This are the cheapest petrol versions for their main models:
Alfa Giulietta: 1.4 liters, turbo, 88 kW, 1.280 kg, 20.500 €
BMW 1 Series: 1.6 liters, 90 kW, 1.255 kg, 24.900 €

Alfa 159: 1.8 liters, turbo, 147 kW, 1.430 kg, 29.000 €
BMW 3 Series: 2.0 liters, 105 kW, 1.360 kg, 31.700 €
A similarly powered 3 Series is the 325i, 160 kW, 38.500 € or the 210i, 125 kW and 33.500 €

Regarding the cheapest diesel versions, all turboed of course:
Alfa Giulietta: 1.6 liters, 77 kW, 1.310 kg, 22.400 €
BMW 1 Series: 2.0 liters, 85 kW, 1.310 lg, 26.700 kg

Alfa 159: 1.9 liters, 88 kW, 1.525 kg, 27.100 €
BMW 3 Series: 2.0 liters, 85kW, 1.400 kg, 30.100 €

As far as options are considered, entry level BMWs aren't well equipped generally as many German cars as well, while Alfas are pretty much ready to go if you don't want larger wheels, sat nav or full leather interior etc...

Thanks.

IMO Alfa's shouldn't command a price that close to BMW as they are not nearly as widely desirable. Maybe a couple thousand cheaper than that and they can begin building a volume customer base then command a premium price later. If they want volume....I don't know what their goal is.

[LeonOfTheDead]

It's curious because of all the car manufacturers in the world, Alfa Romeo has to be one that's driven the most by enthusiasts, because enthusiasts are mostly its customer base. Trying to shift that will only end in tears most probably, as normal people simply aren't interested in being part of Alfa Romeo's costumer base. I would even say that since there's hardly any badge whoring in it, it's far more enthusiat-drive than the traditional heavyweights, like Ferrari, Porsche, Maserati or Aston Martin.

That's the problem, its customer base isn't either enough or buying their cars despite liking them. It just can't survive with them.
So it has to either do what's doing or trying to be what Saab is supposed to become in a few years, and we don't have a clue if that's going to work.

Thanks.

IMO Alfa's shouldn't command a price that close to BMW as they are not nearly as widely desirable. Maybe a couple thousand cheaper than that and they can begin building a volume customer base then command a premium price later. If they want volume....I don't know what their goal is.

I can assure you those are pretty good figures for that type of car. Cheaper would be quite difficult, not only froma profit point of view, but also because you'd be too close to cars from a lower segment, and we don't like that.
Elaborating on this last sentence, whenever an automaker bring a car to the market, a good car, well equipped and all, and with a price considerably lower than the competition, it just fails. Always. Ask the Italians, the Frenches, the folks from Northern Europe, Jaguar and so on.
We want to sped...

The tv commercial for the new Dacia Duster (ultra cheap SUV from the cheap brand owned by Renault) is pretty focused on that.
You see this braggers couple driving around town in this car, with people from the outside just starring at them as if they were the coolest thing on earth.
Then they just go back to the dealer, after this test drive, and ask for the price because the car is just right for them. The salesman says "12.000 €" or thereabouts (with discounts), and they just go away with a terrible expression on their faces because "we want to spend much more!".

That's it, we are screwed.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I took me about ten seconds of driving to fall in love with the 159.

Recently, in Switzerland, I saw a new Giulietta for few seconds or so - again, I fell in love immediately.

But, according to general opinion, these are supposed to be dull and passionless products from a confused maker?

For me, it is certainly not Alfa Romeo that has a problem. The problem is ridiculous need to stereotype everything.

Forgive me but I take one look at the Giuletta and think Pokemon with a weight problem.

The Mito looks like it's just sucked a lemon.

the 159 is a beautiful thing to behold, certainly. the detailing is elegant and the execution bang on, but it's just...I don't know, lacking a little bit of interest. It's too aloof a design. It's like the pretty girl you see in class, who is too pretty to talk to for fear of her rejection. As opposed to previous Alfa's which were achingly pretty and you would risk rejection just to hear her speak...

I've also heard whispers that the Italians intend to try and increase Alfa's annual sales to nearly 500,000 units annually. which is about 400,000 more than last year.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I've also heard whispers that the Italians intend to try and increase Alfa's annual sales to nearly 500,000 units annually. which is about 400,000 more than last year.

No whispers but a declared war. On the other hand, they will have (hopefully) a certain North American market to exploit by that time.

The Giulietta looks quite better in the flesh, I have to say.
The MiTo is more of a panda, especially with clear colors and the darkened elements around the headlights. Still fine with me.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I don't mean to sound like a negative nancy but do Alfa Romeo seriously think they are going to crack the US market in such a way as into increase sales five fold?

Hell, even VW is a bit player in that marketplace. They're setting themselves up for a world of hurt and I'm deeply concerned that attempts to pander to the US market will neuter the brand into obliteration.

I've seen a few MiTo's kicking about my parts...I see a panda, certainly. I guess the problem in Australia (and this goes for the FIAT 500 too) is they are just too gosh darn expensive for what they are.

I mean hell, a FIAT 500 costs nearly $30,000 Australian Dollars.

Also, 14,000th post. woo hoo!