Dual clutch eliminates most of those problems.Originally Posted by pimento
Furniture
Dual clutch eliminates most of those problems.
Lack of charisma can be fatal.
Visca Catalunya!
Fanatic
True, but I'm talking more about 'pure' autos (torque converters, basically) vs clutched shifters. From a dude racing it perspective, someone with a DC 'box (or even a paddle shift auto, but then the torque converter stuff kicks in) is likely to be shifting manually anyway. Like I said, it's probably much better nowadays that it used to be, but old prejudices die hard.
Life's too short to drive bad cars.
Super Moderator
manually "shifting" an auto makes no difference to comparing it with a manual.
The torque convertor is by design intended to match the speed difference between the input and output shaft for a short period to ensure the engine revs dont drop. This means even IN the same gear an engine that is responsive and powerful will create the same "slip" as torque input jumps when throttle is pushed.
With more modern design impellors and new fluids it can be improved, but can never be anywhere near the same control or response that the physically locked mechanical clutch provides while in the same gear.
In changing gears in a manual it does come to driver skill - which if practised is not difficult at all and why some cultures will continue to use clutches as the "skill" is learned very early and exercised regularly.
A bad manual clutch change can easily be worse than an auto
A mediocre manual change will be better and vast majority of drivers are "expert" without even thinking about it !
"A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'
Rookie
the clutch pedal will never be gone. there are many people who prefer a proper manual gear box and car makers understand this. thats my opinion. i don't think it will ever be gone completely just less of them.
Novice
Tend to agree,
That manual boxes won't ever totally go; not in our lifetime anyway.
Having bought a car I wanted that was only available as an auto (4-speed 4L60-E) in the market I where I was, I tried living with it and lasted no more than a year before converting it to manual.
If people feel strongly enough there'll always be an after-market conversion kit of some sort I would have thought.
Rookie
The problem with that is new cars especially sports cars are being equipped with ever-more complex flappy paddle gearboxes, making a conversion to manual very difficult. AFAIK you cant convert a Ferrari 458 to manualTend to agree,
That manual boxes won't ever totally go; not in our lifetime anyway.
Having bought a car I wanted that was only available as an auto (4-speed 4L60-E) in the market I where I was, I tried living with it and lasted no more than a year before converting it to manual.
If people feel strongly enough there'll always be an after-market conversion kit of some sort I would have thought.
-Fundamentals are a crutch for the talentless.
-I thought the blacks in Baltimore were bad, shit, they’re nothing compared to these fags you got here in San Francisco…haha.
-Kenny Powers
Furniture
just heard the camry is no longer available with manual. not much of a loss..
Andreas Preuninger, Manager of Porsche High Performance Cars: "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging."
Furniture
Oh no!
I was just thinking of buying one.
Lack of charisma can be fatal.
Visca Catalunya!
Fanatic
According to BMW's M guru only American customers care about having a manual stick.
Excerpt:
Next year when the M5 makes it Stateside, you'll be able to spec either the seven-speed dual-clutch 'box or a six-speed manual. This fact seems to irritate Biermann. "Here's the problem with the stick," Biermann tells us in a slightly annoyed tone, "only the U.S. wants it. And with the DCT, there's no question about how it will behave. With a manual, the driver is a serious question." Biermann's argument is clear: Driver's suck and the DCT is so good that a manual decreases the performance. Further – and this wasn't explicitly said but clearly implied – the amount of engineering resources that go into adapting the 560-hp sedan to accept a manual cog-swapper is significant. Biermann and his team would undoubtedly prefer to shift those funds and man hours into other endeavors, but they can't because the U.S. – M's largest market – demands it. And Biermann takes it one step further. "I don't know how long we'll be able to keep doing this, but at some point, we'll just have to say 'no'". So is the F10 the last of the manual M5s? We wouldn't be surprised.
the rest:
Six Things We Learned at BMW M
Fanatic
Surprised that they even bothered, the last one didn't have a manual and seems to sell fine? Considering also that all but 1 competitor for the M5 offers manual...
University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
www.fsae.utoronto.ca
Fanatic
The engineers love to push the limits and develop the gizmos but probably never poll the customers to find out what they prefer. It's take what we give you because we're in competition... and we've spent all this time testing it.
I guess the automotive world of high performance has always been about number crunchers... but it seems more so than ever now. Makes for fun magazine comparison articles or touting the latest fastest 'ring time hype I suppose. But somewhere in there the essence of driving a motor car in the real world gets lost...and with the 'drivers suck' attitude, as the article states, it's easy to see how.
Fanatic
Well and emission and fuel economy standard too.....the multi-speed controlled gearbox can deliver much more consistent test result for that kind of testing. And with regs being increasingly more stringent more and more DCT/DSG type boxes will appear on all cars, not just performance cars...
University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
www.fsae.utoronto.ca
Furniture
I think the last one towards the end did have a manual, and that was only offered to the European market in both estate and sedan forms.
How hard would it be anyway to make a transmission for it? Since Mercedes doesn't offer a manual in any of its AMG models, it would be a good selling point for BMW to keep the manual option.
I'm probably over simplifying, but I'm sure lower models of the 5 series in one shape or form has a manual transmission. Couldn't they just make the new M5 manual transmission to fit the same general area and bolt all the M5 bits over? How hard could it be?
Engineers love challenges! They're just lazy!
Fanatic
It isn't hard, they're just being anal.
Furniture
It's curious that in Europe manuals are mainstream to Average Joes (and many can't even fathom autos), but people with money are much more adamant to autos in performance cars, while in the US it seems to be the other way round.
I don't think "drivers" are considered for pretty much the entire contemporary automotive production...
Lack of charisma can be fatal.
Visca Catalunya!
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