Viper vs C6 (Fifth Gear)

[Matra et Alpine]

I like Top Gear and 5th Gear both good programs. But don't believe everything you hear. Or for a matter of fact see from them. Anyone remember when Top Gear tested the C6? They had the C6 drag race a bunch of cars almost all of which the C6 lost to. I can't remember all of them. But I believe one of them was a stock NSX with under 300HP. C6 400hp LOL. The best time I have ever seen for a stock NSX was 13.1. Most magazines have the C6 in the 12.6 second range. A half of a second is A BIG margin.

But TOP GEAR isn't bias. LMAO

IMHO they lost all credibility after that test.

Do you know the details of the test ?
Were they running UK spec or US spec cars ?
Were they running optimal fuel octane for the manufacturers mapping ?
Are OK spec cars lower performance ?
Are US spec cars of the others lower performance ?

There are a hundred reasons why one test isn't matched by others.
My main one for 0-60 given the variability I've seen in test and then subsequently driving the cars at trackdays is what tyres and tyre pressure they run. SOME tests are optimised to do the 0-60 run and other tests dont' do "tweaks" they run them as they drove them.

Can't say about TG, but the one thing I can assure you is nobody has ANY reason to tamper with the results no matter HOW paranoid teh viewr bight be about it

I sense a little pride getting in the way of objectivity Turn the objectivity dial back up and see the other reasons and MAYBE that it ain't as good AFTER the 60mph and the 1/4 mile. as both those points may be before a gear change THAT's the problem with taking one number as a measure of performance !!

[Matra et Alpine]

Same driver same dry course. The numbers are the closest thing to acurate you will find. Nurburgring has all kinds of corners, straights, etc. It is an all around track. Hell the big log straights might hurt the Viper due to the Vipers shape isn't the best for high speeds.

You're joking right ?

erm shape has buggar all to do with it versus a car which is geared to max at say 140 !!!

Nordscheife is NOT an "all round track" it has predominately FAST sections.
Go look at a map or go incar on the many vids avaialbel for download.
AS Iv'e TRIED to explain in posts, some tracks are "high speed" circuits and those favour cars built for speed. Some tracks are "fast" tracks and have lost of corners but usually little camber changes or variable radius corners. Then you get what I call "tricky tracks" which are nasty with camber, rises, dips and tightening radius corners. I woudnt take the same car as "best" on each of those tracks. I can group the cars that woudl be "best" for each of the set of tracks, but as yet thre isn't a "perfect" ONE

"Viper shape not best for speed". A comaprison. A Civic Type R with a little tune can beat a LOT of cars around KNockhill - a local track. In wet conditions I woudl GUARANTEE it woudl win over a Viper, in dry it's be close. BUT I'd not touch a Honda for Donnington or Silverstone There I'd want something with "longer legs" and the Viper woudl come in the top groupings of cars for it's ability to push the power onto ther tarmac.

"same driver same course" ? We were talking abotu the same. BUT waht abotu setup times ? all it takes is for one car to naturally be a better setup adn the driver has no effort to control it. There are too many variables to ponder. UNLESS you are saying they were unmodified, same shock and damper rates, nothing altered ( are they adjustables on the Viper, they were on the NSX ), what about tyre pressures ? So unless there is a "sufficient" time for setup on each, then there is already a huge variable.

BUT, there is useful information IMHO in that effort to setup for best laps too though. I'd rather have a car that was fast and easy to get optimal than one needing lots of effort. Hence I was astounded the SR3 beat a factory supported multi-day effort in 4 laps !! I actually thought the Radical woudl ahve required the more work being more "race edge" design.

[Matra et Alpine]

You have got to be kidding me telling me my car isnt fast.

You're getting hung up trygin to defend your choice of car, you dont' need to.

Jsut because there are faster cars does not stop a car beign fast !!

a 5:1 power ratio is absolutley crazy in any car.

WHAT is 5:1 ?
Do you mean power to weight ? How are you measuring ? power per ton is the norm used.
300hp per ton is easily attainable and often availablie to care we drive energetically over here.
For those who are "trackday warroiers" 500hp/ton is seen ( and too damn often now )
The Viper is 200/ton which as I'd already pointed out is NOT that good for a sports car
it may be in the US, but even now your cars ARE getting lighter and will be approaching that !!

Did you even go search about it, or did you automatically assume you are right with no real basis like the rest of your post?

Who are you replying to ?
Woudl help if you either quote the origianl post or at least put a name in so we know who is to respond.
[QUOTE]You obviously never have driven any cars like these before. You missed so completley what i was saying in my post it is rediculous, I DO NOT care how it is in britain, as i am in the US and explaining my opinion about it here.[/quote}
I'll not take up the comment about cars driven. BUT please remember the thread is abotu the comments in a BRITISH show for the car in BRITAIN.
Are you sayign the Viper is the BEST CAR IN ALL THE WORLD in ALL CONDITIONS ? It woudlnt' get 10 feet on some of the Scottish roads because of it's size.
No clearly ANY ivaluation of a cars performacne is abotu in it's target market and in this case it's BRITAIN adn a British reviews says "RUBBISH" - take the time to understand why though, it's a considered analysis and IS perfectly sane if you let the 'ego' on defending our own cars be put aside for a second.
( We ALL have that 'ego' on anything we purchase. It takes training to learn to keep it under control )

Even so it will still be a hell of car there. About the one second on a track comment, i'm talking aboout on road, I know its an eternity racing.

We didn't brign up the track numbers to rubbish the rubbish comment

You are once again getting way too caught up in numbers, i know its an extreme example but you said missing a round at the pub its so slow? If you are driving that hard on public roads, you will die, end of story. Get over yourself, I'd like to know what kind of car you drive that gives you the right to argue with people who actually have experience.

oh dear, so you WERE referring to me

You ever see those TV shows where soem hard-nut guy woudl walk in shouting his mouth off and threaten to tear someones head of and then the guy he's scremaing abotu stadns up and turns out to be a NFL player or WWF or whatever ?

Yep, you've got THAT feelign right now !!

I was in a Viper at the European launch in Stockholm
The rest you can fidn from my profile, my sig and searching my threads.
Folks here are pissed off and fed up at me having to trot it off to folks acting like "noobs" ( Dont' get all het up, I only said ACTING LIKE )

The pub line was CLEARLY a joke comment. MAN we're going to have to permanently fit a joke analyser to explain these things to those who dont get humour. I think Wouter has it hooked up on the links from the server to Germany, I'll ask him to include the US

But I CAN think of a pub where it would be the case - mainly cos the Viper coudln't get along the loch-side road Actually as I type that I've thought of abotu 20 in the Highlands too. Go search the Carrera Caledonia threads and check out the pics, some of THOSE roads

We took the Alpines on a 6 day driving tour on the Scottish roads years back. With a little bit of recce'ing and talking to the locals many of the sections we ran flat out. The A110s were MINUTES ahead of the GTAs and the A610s. You can't win with heavier cars on twisties

So how many other cars have you driven ?
Where and to what level of performance ?
I hear what you're saying not knowing me, I'd like to know you equally well.

[CdocZ]

Brain.......hurts........

too much.......to read......

And it's......ALL by Matra

Learn to summarize

[Matra et Alpine]

Brain.......hurts........

too much.......to read......

And it's......ALL by Matra

Learn to summarize

It started out that way abotu 10 posts back and not understood.

That's the problem sometimes with "summaries"

[early93viper]

It started out that way abotu 10 posts back and not understood.

That's the problem sometimes with "summaries"

Let me summaries some points.

1. A C6 will beat an NSX 0-60 1/4 mile with my sister driving it. And I am not a C6 fan.

2. No matter what track you put a car on there are exuses you can make. You said the viper was a bad track car. I gave the only two tracks were I found the viper had been tested on. And the Viper did good on both (one even in the wet). One was a tight track and one was not.

3. If a car is geared to the max 140 or better yet no matter how it is geared its top speed isn't great. Maybe that car is a bad track car since there are many tracks that get up to higher speeds.

[Widsinator]

Matra, I can see we both have strong opinions and were not going to change them, and as your a moderator i think especially you will realize this, lets try to rap up the arguement type thing, as its not going anywhere. As far as me being that guy in the bar, I do not feel that at all, I think we have both been underestimating eachother, and please if your going to complain about me jumping to conclusions, don't do it yourself. I think I read you were in a viper once, what else just curious? As far as cars go before the viper, I had 3 corvettes 82, 87, and 93. My friends and I all drive fast cars, at least to our standards and not to yours, I've driven my friends 03 Evo, 05 Elise, 1968 Mustang with a Supercharged 496Ci engine, a new C6 corvette, I was actually very impressed, and my friends 1987 ferrari tesstarosa, not so impressed. These are just the ones that have stood out, and there are some i still havent driven. You are actually showing me how immature you are by calling me a "noob". That is an internet term and has no real relevance to anything. Keep in mind post count has nothing to do with intelligence, I don't have enough time to bother getting 10,000 plus posts. I know that viper is not the fastest car in the world, in fact it is far from it. I am just saying everyone has set there standards too high, way too high.
Now onto my car, I'm gonna make a thread later on this week so I don't have to explain all of this everytime. I DO NOT own a viper anymore and have not for nearly 8 years. I now own a SuperStalker, a kit car which I built. Here is a link to my website with pictures and specs on the front page. http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...39&uid=2662040 5:1 is the pounds per hp measure, in my car it equates to around 400-420hp per ton. I am speaking about the SuperStalker now not the viper. I know my current car, and my previous car are not the fastest cars in the world, it just is horrible to hear people call these types of cars slow, and garbage when they are far from it. As far as your cars go, I do like them alot, very nice cars. Is your alpine the turbo model?

Edit: The Viper has exactly 295.857 hp per ton, I don't know where your getting your figures from.

[Matra et Alpine]

Let me summaries some points.

1. A C6 will beat an NSX 0-60 1/4 mile with my sister driving it. And I am not a C6 fan.

Didn't say otherwise.

What i *DID* say was that the TG test may have shown diffferent times becaues it was longer adn hence the advantages of gear changes happening ABOVE the magical 60mph speed and 1/4 distance dont' come in to pla.

2. No matter what track you put a car on there are exuses you can make. You said the viper was a bad track car. I gave the only two tracks were I found the viper had been tested on. And the Viper did good on both (one even in the wet). One was a tight track and one was not.

oh dear.

I did NOT say the Viper was "a bad track car" what I *DID* say was that on some tracks it would be bad and on some with longer straights and fixed radious corners it coudl be good.

3. If a car is geared to the max 140 or better yet no matter how it is geared its top speed isn't great. Maybe that car is a bad track car since there are many tracks that get up to higher speeds.

YOU have decided that 140mph means the car isnt' great ?

( You need to visit Matra musem at Romarantin and look at the M25 prototype.
A car DESIGNED to have acceleration and with a low top speed because very few people can get the cahcne tot drive a car at high speed but we can all engjoy acceleration. )

And you ARE getting the point that a car with that kind of gearing would NOT be great for the (many) tracks that are higher speed. So woudl you agree that it might not be unreasonable for a journalist faced with such a car on say an oval is going to describe it as "rubbish".

So thank you, will you now go back and accept that on tracks that are NOT like that then a car with high speed will not have that as an advantage ?

THANK you. So on tracks where the high speed ins't possible woudl you accept that a car that is unabel to beat track times ins't as good ?

THANK YOU. So can you NOW see that in the context of the report that car may not meet the expectatiosn of thost conditions. Hence why a BRITISH report said RUBBISH.

By the way please list me all the 'many" tracks you say are fast tracks ??

[Matra et Alpine]

Matra, I can see we both have strong opinions and were not going to change them, and as your a moderator

thankfully here on UCP being a mod goes for squat, healthy debate and dsiagreemetn is fine here. We try to understand others and explain our own interpretations with open minds.

i think especially you will realize this, lets try to rap up the arguement type thing, as its not going anywhere. As far as me being that guy in the bar, I do not feel that at all, I think we have both been underestimating eachother, and please if your going to complain about me jumping to conclusions, don't do it yourself.

Sorry man I didnt'. .I've actually gone bakc and REVIEWD what I typed and I'm sorry you still dont' see the stance you took in calling it out, but as you say lets leave it.

I think I read you were in a viper once, what else just curious?

I'd pointed you to do the search as folsk here get fed up seeing the list and I ahve troubel remembering half of them
Mini Cooper S, Mini 1340 rally special, Imp rally special Willis engined, Escort Mk1 Twin Cam with turreted and multi link suspension and later full BDA Burton prepped engine. Chevette HS2300, Avenger Tiger, MGB GT rally car, Porsche most of the 911s including the raw RSR of the 70s, 944 and one of the early 928Ss as well as versions through all decades and Boxter most recent Carrera 4S, matra bagheera, Matra Murena 142S, D'Jet, M530, Alpines A110, A310 V6, GTA, A610, Sylva Stryker, Caterham Superlight, TVR Cerbera, Chimera, Radical SR-3, Westfield Seight, BMW M3s and 5s road and race versions, Volve T5, Delta Integrale, Audi Quattro works rally coupe and 80, LoCost 1300 X-flow, Lamborghini Diablo, Ferrari F40, 365(?) check knockhill pics forget the number ), Testarossa, 308, Lotus Cortina, Elan, Elan Sprint and 2+2S, Elite, Elise, Eclat, Elan S2, Elise, Exige, Jaguar MkIIS, XJS, Noble, GTD GT40, Sierra Cosworth 4x4 works rally, RS500, Honda Beat, S2000, Civic Type-R, NSX, Toyota MR-2 ( 3 variants ), Morgan, Mitsubishi EVO 4-7, Subaru WRX and STi, Nissan 300SX, Peugeot 205 GTi, T16, 405 M16, Renault Spyder, R5 T2, Clio 182, V6, Viper, Camaro Z28 (!), Thunderbird (the original), Mustang (dont remember engine but BIG fast and lovely noise ), Mercedes 190E Evolution, SLK, 500 and a few others VW Golf G60, Corrado G60, GTi
I've not covered the pure track cars but a handful of March and Reynard FF1600 and single seater, Club 750 Mallock, Fiesta, Cosworth Sierra.
Theres still about a 10 year gap that I'm too tired to type up and I've not included the hundreds of others I've sat in or had a lap in on trackdays.
You might see why I TRIED to joke about the pub comment

As far as cars go before the viper, I had 3 corvettes 82, 87, and 93. My friends and I all drive fast cars, at least to our standards and not to yours, I've driven my friends 03 Evo, 05 Elise, 1968 Mustang with a Supercharged 496Ci engine, a new C6 corvette, I was actually very impressed, and my friends 1987 ferrari tesstarosa, not so impressed. These are just the ones that have stood out, and there are some i still havent driven. You are actually showing me how immature you are by calling me a "noob".

You took offense too quickly I said acting LIJE a noob, I was very careful NOT to call you it, but your attitude was to call out everyeon else and NOT learn a bit about foslk in UCP before sounding off.

That is an internet term and has no real relevance to anything.

:cough: we're ON the internet :cough:
Nahm seriously it's used regulalry here and once you've seen a few posts from "them" you'll see it again

Keep in mind post count has nothing to do with intelligence, I don't have enough time to bother getting 10,000 plus posts.

Neither do I.
You read too much in to the amount of involvement, guidance, help and fun posts from 'moi'
See, that is a typical thing that a noob WOUDL say. Hence why I gave the hint of oobishness in my reply.
Sorry, I tried to keep it light, dont' be too offended by it. Sorry if it did. Happy to put my hand up and say it was a bad call by me.

I know that viper is not the fastest car in the world, in fact it is far from it. I am just saying everyone has set there standards too high, way too high.

WAI, those stanrds are set by the journalists who wrote the article we're discussing.
You're saying they've set them TOO high ? BUT they're set by the expericen of the cars they drive !!! I've never heard the idea that we dshouldnt' have high standards because of the high standard carsa aroudn
Kind of shot in the foot with that.
Equally many here HAVE driven the occaisonal fast car enough to be able to equate with what the journalists say in general and to listen to them for a starting reference point.

Now onto my car, I'm gonna make a thread later on this week so I don't have to explain all of this everytime. I DO NOT own a viper anymore and have not for nearly 8 years. I now own a SuperStalker, a kit car which I built. Here is a link to my website with pictures and specs on the front page. http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...39&uid=2662040

ah I misunderstood an eralier post, I thought the SuperStalker was an upgrade on the Viper, sorry.
NICE kit, is it based on one of the traditional 7 copies or a copy in it's own right.
BTW, dont panic, 7-copy is NOT a derogatory statement

5:1 is the pounds per hp measure, in my car it equates to around 400-420hp per ton.

Ah right, got you.
unusual to see it listed in that ratio for us, another example of seperate by our common language

I am speaking about the SuperStalker now not the viper. I know my current car, and my previous car are not the fastest cars in the world, it just is horrible to hear people call these types of cars slow, and garbage when they are far from it.

"slow" in all the terms the journalists and anyone here (I'm sure) has been RELATIVE.
Also, ANOTHER example possibly of the differnet usage, but to us ovber here "rubbish" in terms of refernce to an items quality or performacen is NOT the same as the more extrem "garbage"
So I think part of this is the word is triggering a much more extreme response for you than to others for whom "rubbish" is a more often used term.

As far as your cars go, I do like them alot, very nice cars. Is your alpine the turbo model?

Yes.
About to get a little tuning exercise from a German specialist

Edit: The Viper has exactly 295.857 hp per ton, I don't know where your getting your figures from.

It was a Viper site - I googled for it as numbers dont turn me on
300hp/ton is in MY region for "sportscar"

PS: As much as some wont' believe it I like the Viper and the Corvette for the same reasons I loved the Thunderbird and Stingray. They do what it says on the box. BUT they're large and heavy-ish cars and with the roads I drive on and most of the tracks I use are NOT ideally suited. [anecdote]An exmple, a TVR Cerbera and I shared track with the Caterham factory team before hte offical release of the Superlight. We got the run on the long main straign and out Pilgrims, Derek Minter and Clearways, BUT frankly the pissed all over us almost everywhere else. Braking 20 YARDS after us makes a hell of a lot of difference on track time and they did not lift AT ALL goign through Dingle Dell ( the origianl too !! ). You can't beat weight by adding power unless it is a HUGE amount [/anecdote]

[RJ 21]

EDIT: Question and comment: If a Z06 were racing that Viper......of course it would win.......but the Z06 will be close in price

Hell no. Vette will be $65 K... Buy it for, say, $70K and you still got $15K to spend making it EVEN FASTER than the Viper. Viper who?

[Widsinator]

Wow, Matra you are much more of a person then I ever excpected you to be. I hope we can become friends, I made a misjudgement and wrote you off as a noobish person also defending his own opinion. You seem to have alot of the same interests in cars as me. I thought I had had more experience than you, I was obviuosly wrong. Not quite sure why but in that last post I see completley where your coming from. Sorry for misjudging, I'm done arguing.

Edit: About the kit, it is its own design made by Dennis Brunton the creator. Me and my father built the kit together, and spent 2 months researching different kits and finally deciding on this one for a few reasons, it has better engineered steering geometry and handling characteristics than any other kit, it has a supercharged 3.8L V6, and to seal the deal Dennis is a great guy. See www.stalkerv6.com for more info, I believe our car is on the homepage now. Im Jeremy, my Dad is Paul you will see it reffered to different names in diffrent places. That site has a lot of info, stored mostly in the links off of it. I have no problem answering any more questions, just not going to type it all up because I will make a thread soon.

[Matra et Alpine]

Wow, Matra you are much more of a person then I ever excpected you to be. I hope we can become friends, I made a misjudgement and wrote you off as a noobish person also defending his own opinion. You seem to have alot of the same interests in cars as me. I thought I had had more experience than you, I was obviuosly wrong. Not quite sure why but in that last post I see completley where your coming from. Sorry for misjudging, I'm done arguing.

No problems, it's "normal" on getting on a new forum. Sorry if I was a little too obtuse but I dont' ( try not to ) boast abotu what I have and havent' done ( only admitted on UCP to one of my career "offs" for example )
It's behind us now.

Edit: About the kit, it is its own design made by Dennis Brunton the creator. Me and my father built the kit together, and spent 2 months researching different kits and finally deciding on this one for a few reasons, it has better engineered steering geometry and handling characteristics than any other kit, it has a supercharged 3.8L V6, and to seal the deal Dennis is a great guy. See www.stalkerv6.com for more info, I believe our car is on the homepage now. Im Jeremy, my Dad is Paul you will see it reffered to different names in diffrent places. That site has a lot of info, stored mostly in the links off of it. I have no problem answering any more questions, just not going to type it all up because I will make a thread soon.

EXcellent looking kit. The chassis structure looks ( as do 99% of kits ) to be the same basic triangels of Colin's 7 !
I'm intrigued by the uprights. Am I right that those are taken for the Chevy S10 pickup truck ? They look quite slim and light for coming from an SUV
MY real question was how does the unequal wishbones work on the front end. Is it setup to give improved braking grip ? how do the wheel angles change on brakign dive and aceleration lit. I'm also intrigued how well they are at maintaining tyre contact while ( or if ) the body rolls on extreme cornering. I've NEVER seen a 7-copy with such a LARGE difference in the upper and lower wishbone and I'ld be interested to here why the designer went with them, what are the inherent advantages he has built in to the geometry. Are there any papers by him on the reasons behind the geometry and the component selection ?
What rate and settings do you have on the springs/dampers ??
Is the rear end a live axle or IRS ? It's hard to tell from the info I read.
I LOVE the bonnet Wish we'd known that before, not needed now as mates Stryker is now sold and a Fisher Fury kit on it's way. We're goping to be busy putting it together for the next few months

EDIT: It's OK, I foudn another site via google showing the rear live axle setup.
BTW it's at http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/stalker...ssis.html#rear a nice personal site tracking his build.

[Widsinator]

The kit is based off of an S-10 for wide availability of parts EX: you break something you go to a local autoparts store, not order parts from the manufacturer. It is a 5-link live axel in the rear. Also it had the right geometry in the spindles to set it up right. The unequal wishbone set up is for no bump-steer, and i mean absolutley none, theres a video somewhere showing it. The braking dive is not really affected because the tires maintain full contact throughout the whole movement of the suspension, as is with acceleration. Dennis while he is a great guy, does not do much documentation research and rather just figures out how sometihng will work and does it. I will ask him if he has something about it I overlooked. I am not sure exactly about the spring weight but I belive its around 450lbs, and no idea about damping as my father set that up and I worked on the engine. Dennis as he has explained to me did not look to other kits for inspiration, but rather built it as he believed everything should be, so alot of things are different. He has been racking up FTD's in autocross all over florida though, against other 7,s and oddly enough corvette zo6's. The bonnet is mostly to fit the engine under, if you look close in the pictures you can see the pulley sticking out. If you have pics of your alpine I'd be very intrested in seeing that.

Edit: Yes thats Sam Buchanan that his second stalker if im not mistaken. He is a little full of himself, but hes helped some of the other wankers building stalkers out. Dennis isnt the type to build a great website, if you ever see a picture of him youll know exactly what I mean. Sam has done alot for the stalkers. I think youll find almost all of the information you want to know off the links on stalkerv6.com

[Matra et Alpine]

The unequal wishbone set up is for no bump-steer, and i mean absolutley none,

Wow, trying to guess at the geometry that was the first concern that came to mind as it looked as if the uprighat have a fair angle between top and bottom ball joint. Guess not

theres a video somewhere showing it.

Right thanks, I'll d/l the vids from the site and check them out.

He has been racking up FTD's in autocross all over florida though, against other 7,s and oddly enough corvette zo6's.

hee-hee, it's OK to some of us that's no great surprise, but others will call out out on that no doubt

If you have pics of your alpine I'd be very intrested in seeing that.

yeah the problem with so many posts is finding you the ones with the alpien in it. I've posted pics an vids, including a lap of Knockhill by BTCC Champion Tim Harvey
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...ght=a610+track
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...ght=a610+track
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...ght=a610+track
some of the others
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...5&postcount=18

[Niko_Fx]

Nice Widsinator, looking forward to see some videos of that little beast!

5:1 is far better than a C6 or Viper, the accel must be superb.