2010 24 Hours of Le Mans, LMS and ALMS news

[Dino Scuderia]

Peugeot front row, Davidson on pole.... He hasn't raced here since he drove the Ferrari 550.

Risi has the front row in GT2, the lizard is all the way down in 8th...I don't think they really tried.

The track conditions have been constantly changing throughout the week and today they had the hottest Tarmac. Race day will be much like today, perfect weather.

I'm at the track and the crowd is huge already.

[henk4]

Peugeot front row, Davidson on pole.... He hasn't raced here since he drove the Ferrari 550.

Risi has the front row in GT2, the lizard is all the way down in 8th...I don't think they really tried.

The track conditions have been constantly changing throughout the week and today they had the hottest Tarmac. Race day will be much like today, perfect weather.

I'm at the track and the crowd is huge already.

Have fun. Can't wait to hear Chernaudi's explanation as to why the Audis are not the fastest. No doubt a cunning strategy once more...

[RacingManiac]

Also can't wait to see how Peugeot is going to find a way to lose this one.....

Lotterier(sp) just damaged the car by hitting the curb too hard on the esses...the R15 is definitely a fussy car compare to the previous ones....

[RacingManiac]

The Audi and Peugeot are pretty even in the race trim. Peugeot is definitely still faster, but Audi I think is still racing smarter....and in US, where they still allow 2 air gun in the stop, Peugeot's slower closed cockpit pitstop is having an effect...

[Dino Scuderia]

The Pug is definitely more planted in the esses and exiting the esses... The Audi's seem to develop a push on long runs. The Pugs fly through there and touch 204mph on the back straight.

[RacingManiac]

204?! Damn....no wonder they look so fast....pretty much every car, Audi included, looks like they are sitting still when a Peugeot is running with them....

[Chernaudi]

From what I heard on Speed's coverage, maybe Audi need to look at the R8 and what made it so good. Be it the R10 or the R15, they can't get the car hooked up to out-handle the Pugs without killing straightline speed. Even when the R15's gained in the Esses and such, the Pugs had enough straightline speed keep anything behind them.

The R8 was described as having low speed understeer, like the 908 seems to have, but it was manageable and even made the R8 fast in fast corners because of it's grip. The R10 and R15's grip levels aren't as consistant, and they have to add downforce to counter it. Of course, with the smaller engines for next year, that will help Audi if they can keep the engine weight down to R8 levels for the R18, and if they can manage the weight of the KERS--Peugeot's 908 HY demonstrator weighted about 35kgs more than the standard 908, which always was an overweight car to begin with, and it's claimed that the Porsche 911 Hybrid's Williams F1 sourced flywheel KERS system adds a couple hundred pounds of weight.

Even at that, Audi may've won if Dindo didn't have that problem with his helmet that got them off sequence, and even at that TK would've had to not have had that puncture with 4 laps to go.

Audi matched Peugeot's overall pace, but with as close as the cars were in pace and the Pugs' straightline speed, they couldn't afford those freak issues.

Ironically, the 08 Peugeot that won had a spin, bodywork damage, and a horrid pit stop, but still won because it got off pit sequence with the 07.

[RacingManiac]

I don't think really at this stage they are that different in speed, Peugeot is still faster, which is a testament to how fast 908 is, since this car is still the benchmark for speed since 2007. Audi probably would've had a better chance of winning if it weren't for that freak issue with Dindo's helmet, there is just not that much speed differential or mistake from Peugeot to help Audi catch them. I think looking at what made R8 fast wouldn't have helped them. They are in unknown territory right now as far as sportscar racing goes. Regardless how slow R15 is relative to R8, the car is still ~10+ sec FASTER than the fastest R8 was on RACE PACE. The formula although different is not THAT different. There has been a ton of development in this type of cars and at this stage they are building much more complicated cars. R8 when it boils down to it is not that complicated now. When you have as much little bits and piece on the car aerodynamically to make it work it doesn't take much for the car to lose speed once you starting to break them....if you saw the pics on MulsannesCorner on R15's front undertray you'll see there are like a gazillion vortex generator under there, what happen if you break 1, 2 or 10 of them?

If anything though they could do much good to make the R18 more robust, the kind of damage that the 2nd Audi had today just by running wide and over the curb is probably too extreme, especially for an endurance car....

[Chernaudi]

What I was refering to was the chassis dynamics of the R8--the drivers say that it had slight, very manageable understeer in slow corners but was extremely good in fast corners. Also, the R8 had a much wider set up window than the R10 or R15 have had thus far. It's obvious that Peugeot have learned from looking at the R8 and duplicated it's performance from a chassis dynamic stand point, as well as the fact that the Pug doesn't have a lot of the trick areo that the R15 allegedly has. Audi initally had that R8 dynamic in the early R15, but they can't find it consistantly. All the diesels are compormised by the big, heavy diesel engines, but Peugeot has managed to make their car just slightly faster when the need to.

As I said, Audi are looking at the R18, and maybe integrating the R8/908-like dynamics that the R10 and R15 haven't always had. And the smaller engines that the ACO are encouraging teams to run might help. Also, Audi and Peugeot are looking at KERS for their 2011 cars, and the Porsche 911 Hybrid showed that they can make it work if they keep the weight manageable.

The Audi R8 needed plenty of ballast to meet 900kgs though out it's life, and the Audi R15 needed a lot of ballast to meet 900kgs, let alone 930. I think that if Peugeot wants to run KERS, however, they'll have to ditch the hydraulic systems that the 908 uses, because even though it's now reliable, the system still takes up a lot of weight.

And I don't know with the engine power reduction if the exposed diffuser front ends like on the R15 and the 908 will carry over onto the new cars--if so, I'd expect the R18 to use a front end like the Bentley Speed 8, or the R10 or the 908--they seem to be more robust than the current R15's, and don't rely on the aluminum front diffuser that damaged two tubs and nearly took out the #9 Audi.

[henk4]

I haven't seen anything from the race so I have nothing to add to the discussion, but reading the post ^^, it looks like another undeserved win for Peugeot.

[RacingManiac]

I won't say its undeserved, anytime you run a race with largely trouble free barring some driver error, and at the pace that they are running, its a great win. Audi was putting up real fight and it would be a lot more exciting if it had come down to the end without Capello's trouble. You can see McNish, Kristensen, and Capello were driving their ass off to keep up, and they were always much more aggressive in traffic, which is how they did manage to keep up. But any bit of clear air and the 908 was managing to gap them....

The new Audi boys are fast in quali, but the old dogs are still the race driver to have....

[henk4]

I won't say its undeserved, anytime you run a race with largely trouble free barring some driver error, and at the pace that they are running, its a great win. Audi was putting up real fight and it would be a lot more exciting if it had come down to the end without Capello's trouble. You can see McNish, Kristensen, and Capello were driving their ass off to keep up, and they were always much more aggressive in traffic, which is how they did manage to keep up. But any bit of clear air and the 908 was managing to gap them....

The new Audi boys are fast in quali, but the old dogs are still the race driver to have....

my reference was directed at post 189 and 187.....

[Chernaudi]

If you had watched the race like I and RacingManiac did, once and Audi got out front, it tended to stay there, same for Peugeot.

Peugeot did as Audi did with the R8--design a car for Le Mans and sucessfuly adapt it to do everything else. Audi with the R15 designed a car for the ALMS, and adapted it for Le Mans. Which works better? Easier to add downforce and drag to a basic LM-spec car than to design a downforce car and try to pare off drag.

Audi's drivers, especially the #7, were better in traffic than the Pug guys, and for a while, the Pugs, namely the #08 seemed to be like in '09 and trying to find a way to throw it away early, with Sarazin's spin and a subsequent pit stop that was horrid and took about 20 seconds longer than it should have because Sarazin badly overshot his pit and the crew had to fight with the car to get it to the fuel hose. One Pug also ran into a Corvette, which Gavin wasn't very happy about.

In other words, when Audi screws up, it's a freak issue usually, like with Dindo's helmet insert, which is ironically a saftey feature required by ACO and IMSA rules. On the other hand, Peugeot's errors, like the rods at LM and the spin and bungled pit stop yesterday are often self-inflicted, though either driver error and trying to reach too far for any advantage, or though the team trying to grab for too much.

As Speed's commentators said, if not for Dindo's helmet problem and TK's puncture, and Lotterer breaking the nose of his car trying to avoid the off-the-pace Porsche RS Spyder that had engine problems all day, the end of that race may've looked a lot different.

[henk4]

If you had watched the race like I and RacingManiac did, once and Audi got out front, it tended to stay there, same for Peugeot.

Peugeot did as Audi did with the R8--design a car for Le Mans and sucessfuly adapt it to do everything else. Audi with the R15 designed a car for the ALMS, and adapted it for Le Mans. Which works better? Easier to add downforce and drag to a basic LM-spec car than to design a downforce car and try to pare off drag.

Audi's drivers, especially the #7, were better in traffic than the Pug guys, and for a while, the Pugs, namely the #08 seemed to be like in '09 and trying to find a way to throw it away early, with Sarazin's spin and a subsequent pit stop that was horrid and took about 20 seconds longer than it should have because Sarazin badly overshot his pit and the crew had to fight with the car to get it to the fuel hose. One Pug also ran into a Corvette, which Gavin wasn't very happy about.

In other words, when Audi screws up, it's a freak issue usually, like with Dindo's helmet insert, which is ironically a saftey feature required by ACO and IMSA rules. On the other hand, Peugeot's errors, like the rods at LM and the spin and bungled pit stop yesterday are often self-inflicted, though either driver error and trying to reach too far for any advantage, or though the team trying to grab for too much.

As Speed's commentators said, if not for Dindo's helmet problem and TK's puncture, and Lotterer breaking the nose of his car trying to avoid the off-the-pace Porsche RS Spyder that had engine problems all day, the end of that race may've looked a lot different.

somewhere else I read a reaction to some of your earlier words.....they called it spin.
But anyway, in your words this being an ALMS race, the R15 should be excellently suitable for that and still lost. 'nough said.

[Chernaudi]

If the #7 didn't have the issues with Dindo's helmet, they could've won. The only reason the #08 won is because it got off sequence with it's stops to regain the earlier lost track position. Peugeot in some ways got lucky with Audi's lack of luck, because Gene had a hell of a time trying to pass TK--every time Tom caught traffic, Gene had to back off as Kristensen found his way through.

Also, Peugeot should be glad that the next Audi is likely a GTP coupe like the 908, because Audi still had faster stops under IMSA's pit rules, and even then Audi may still have a slight edge in the ALMS' ILMC events.

Also, Peugeot's drivers still made mistakes, and Peugeot can't count on Audi doing the same. Also, the Pugs had to push because the Audis could keep up with them--that's why the 908s seemed squirly in high speed corners and were blowing out black soot out of their exhausts, which the Audis didn't do nearly as bad. Maybe Audi in China should take the DPFs off the R15s for more power like Peugeot did, because that was Peugeot's last defense in my book, by taking the Jeremy Clarkson path of "more powaarrrr!"

Also, Audi did longer stints under green that Peugeot did--McNish did a 45+lap stint on his last run in the car, while Peugeot usually did 42-44 laps, more evidence that they had to fight like almighty hell because they knew that Audi posed a serious threat.

In all, Audi has the better team and drivng squad, while Peugeot has the better car. If the Audi had the 908, Peugeot would be screwed, because as a team they're not quite as strong overall. However, when some freak thing happens and someone has the slightly faster car and driving errors are kept to a minimum (or least taken care of early), you can't beat a car that's running the same lap times.