Report: VW wants to buy Alfa Romeo

[LeonOfTheDead]

Despite still defending present Alfa's quality, I'm not so sure how well VAG did to Lamborghini.
Yes, it's still alive but it's also half dead and is forced to make this much little money. A friend working there recently told me that they have to give to Audi a certain paret of their profit per each car sold, based on each dealer's capacity.
Meaning that smaller dealers generate more profit for Lamborghini, larger ones generate more for Audi.
In order to give Audi as little as possible many cars were sold via small dealers which had still some margin, while larger dealers were officially selling anymore once reached a certain figure.

This resulted in some not so happy buyers, and in a not so happy situation with Audi. Presently they are also selling less car than last year too, so the problem isn't present as of now, but may come out again.

Like Ferrari with Maserati, Audi is moving the design offices/figures to Germany, which isn't a problem right now, but if/when Audi should put a distance between itself and Lamborghini, the Italian company would risk to be left out int he cold with little to warm itself with.

That's sort of what Ferrari did with Maserati, which is presently struggling a little to start again having lost many technical resources.

I'd rather leave everything as it is right now, and wait for the next gen of Alfas (starting with the Giulietta) to be completed.

[Ferrer]

I can see two main problems with that.

On the bussiness side there's massive overlap with high end Volkswagens and pretty much the entire Audi range. Which would mean cannibalising sales and lower profit margins for everyone.

On the enthusiast side, if an Alfa Romeo ever is based on Audi mechanicals the entire VAG will be terminated by me. With fire. And chainsaws.

[Dino Scuderia]

If anyone doubts VW's ambitions and quest to take over the world they should see the 1 billion dollar facility just going into production near me.

[Commodore GS/E]

Audi is moving the design offices/figures to Germany

i thought it was the other way

[LotusLocost]

Ooooh nooooooes...

Ze Germanz..

[LeonOfTheDead]

i thought it was the other way

I meant "Audi is moving (Lamborghini's) offices/figures to Germany", so yeah, as you thought.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Despite still defending present Alfa's quality, I'm not so sure how well VAG did to Lamborghini.
Yes, it's still alive but it's also half dead and is forced to make this much little money. A friend working there recently told me that they have to give to Audi a certain paret of their profit per each car sold, based on each dealer's capacity.

Well thats not surprising considering, you know, Audi are their technical boss. You'll find it's pretty similar with any car company owned by another.

Meaning that smaller dealers generate more profit for Lamborghini, larger ones generate more for Audi.
In order to give Audi as little as possible many cars were sold via small dealers which had still some margin, while larger dealers were officially selling anymore once reached a certain figure.

But thats a supply chain problem, the cars themselves haven't suffered at all. I think we can all agree Dealers are the worst part of any car chain/purchasing experience.

This resulted in some not so happy buyers, and in a not so happy situation with Audi. Presently they are also selling less car than last year too, so the problem isn't present as of now, but may come out again.

Audi will sell more cars - look at the A1. They're moving towards high volume.

Like Ferrari with Maserati, Audi is moving the design offices/figures to Germany, which isn't a problem right now, but if/when Audi should put a distance between itself and Lamborghini, the Italian company would risk to be left out int he cold with little to warm itself with.

I somehow get the feeling that when it comes down to it, while the R8 is an impressive piece of kit, it's no Lamborghini. You can neuter the company all you like, and indeed in the past many have done their utmost to, but it will still inspire people thanks to the raging bull. And for the record I can't think of any major manufacturer who doesn't have a design branch in Germany.

That's sort of what Ferrari did with Maserati, which is presently struggling a little to start again having lost many technical resources.

Maserati is struggling because it's not allowed to compete with Ferrari, while Ferrari is busy gobbling up it's market share. Without the Quattroporte I'd have to question why Maserati exists at all in it's present form.

I'd rather leave everything as it is right now, and wait for the next gen of Alfas (starting with the Giulietta) to be completed.

The problem with that is that the way things are right now is neither workable nor profitable, by most accounts. But you are right, let's see how this latest product refresh comes around before exaggerating rumours of AR's death.

On the enthusiast side, if an Alfa Romeo ever is based on Audi mechanicals the entire VAG will be terminated by me. With fire. And chainsaws.

Oh dear indeed. I think the idea might have been to nick the FWD expertise that AR have for some VW stuff.

Most Likely Scenario? AR and Seat under the one banner.

[pimento]

Maserati is struggling because it's not allowed to compete with Ferrari, while Ferrari is busy gobbling up it's market share. Without the Quattroporte I'd have to question why Maserati exists at all in it's present form.

Yea, it'd be really nice if Maserati were allowed to do a proper 'Indy' style GT, more a bruiser V8 than a screamer. I'd reckon there's room enough in the market for that at the moment, but Ferrari still wouldn't let them in.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Well thats not surprising considering, you know, Audi are their technical boss. You'll find it's pretty similar with any car company owned by another.

My point is that what Lamborghini can actually earn in this way isn't exactly enough to assure enough incomes for investements/costs of Lamborghini, meaning that they are "forced" to rely on Audi.

But thats a supply chain problem, the cars themselves haven't suffered at all. I think we can all agree Dealers are the worst part of any car chain/purchasing experience.

I meant that many were as pleased simply because they entered say Lamborghini's dealer in Munich, but had to deal with the one in Milan, perhaps.

Audi will sell more cars - look at the A1. They're moving towards high volume.

Was talking about Lamborghini, which is selling less cars than in 2009, when they sold less car than in 2008.

I somehow get the feeling that when it comes down to it, while the R8 is an impressive piece of kit, it's no Lamborghini. You can neuter the company all you like, and indeed in the past many have done their utmost to, but it will still inspire people thanks to the raging bull. And for the record I can't think of any major manufacturer who doesn't have a design branch in Germany.

Many have some sort of branch in Germany, but it's ok only as far as it is yours. The point wasn't where th branch is, but that it's not under their own control. The same was for Maserati, even if the offices were in Maranello as opposed to Modena. Once the two companies separated again from each other, many personalities and whatnot didn't come back to Modena.

Maserati is struggling because it's not allowed to compete with Ferrari, while Ferrari is busy gobbling up it's market share. Without the Quattroporte I'd have to question why Maserati exists at all in it's present form.

Actually, Maserati can't survive on its own know, let alone compete with Ferrari. Despite many potential owners considering Maserati as expensive/exclusive as Aston Martin, the fact is that the company didn't compete in such market since ages.
Many people think a Maserati costs around 180.000 €, but once they don't even check if that's true or not. So regardless of the real price (120.000 € or thereabouts) they don't buy it.
Can't really see a problem of competing with Ferrari or not.
Also, they are relying on Ferrari for a large part of the design process, the engines are as of now designed and built by Ferrari according to Maserati's needs (decided by Ferrari), while the chassis' are still based on the 3200's and modified each time.
For the next gen of car they will be relying on the California/next 612 platform, so once again, they are unable to survive on its own.
Not only they don't have the economical resources, but now they also lack of a technical knowhow.

[Ferrer]

(One of) The problem within FGA, is that like many other big automotive corporations their brands are cross-shopped by their buyers, basically because they used to cater for the same market.

Only in Fiat's case that's much more obvious than GM or Ford. Part of the problems lies in the fact they were separate entities before falling under Fiat's umbrella and a results had their own character and that they weren't divisions especifically created to fit a certain market segment.

The other problem is that Fiat bought pretty much all relevant italian car manufacturers instead of diversifying to other countrie, which meant that they were natural rivals. Alfa Romeo and Lancia basically used to go head to head for the same costumer. True they approached it from different angles, but still they both are from the same quality, premium, mid-priced product.

And there's Maserati and Ferrari, which have about the same problem as Alfa Romeo and Lancia only at a higher price point. So it's no wonder Fiat has struggled with at least some of their brands.

Oh dear indeed. I think the idea might have been to nick the FWD expertise that AR have for some VW stuff.

Most Likely Scenario? AR and Seat under the one banner.

Nah, if VW buys Alfa, Seat will be terminated.

Also Alfa Romeo under Volkswagen control means no hope of ever going back to rear wheel drive. Ever.

Also I know I'm late but:

Alfa Romeo is currently a brand without a purpose - Not high end enough for Audi/BMW/Mercedes Comparisons, Not cheap or ubiquitous enough for Ford/Opel comparisons. It occupies a no-mans land which killed Rover, a land of high prices but average product.

That's not quite exact. What happens to day is that if you aren't german you can't sell premium cars in the 30-60 grand range. And that's exactly what killed (or dropped the quality, or made them fit in big corporations which dulled their souls and that's about the same as dying) Rover, Triumph, Saab, Volvo, Lancia or Alfa Romeo amongst others.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

My point is that what Lamborghini can actually earn in this way isn't exactly enough to assure enough incomes for investements/costs of Lamborghini, meaning that they are "forced" to rely on Audi.

I hardly think they can be self sufficient. Hell, they've been relying on investment since the mid 70's.

I meant that many were as pleased simply because they entered say Lamborghini's dealer in Munich, but had to deal with the one in Milan, perhaps.

I sort of understand. I think.

Was talking about Lamborghini, which is selling less cars than in 2009, when they sold less car than in 2008.

A Combination of Aging product and a global economy that's gone south. Coupled with minor cannibalisation from Audi's R8 (TBH, I think that takes more from Porsche, but I digress)

Many have some sort of branch in Germany, but it's ok only as far as it is yours. The point wasn't where th branch is, but that it's not under their own control. The same was for Maserati, even if the offices were in Maranello as opposed to Modena. Once the two companies separated again from each other, many personalities and whatnot didn't come back to Modena.

I understand this, but when you're part of a multinational you have to look at yourself not as a seperate entity but the tentacle of an 8 legged beast. That sort of individualism is both costly and unworkable in most modern car worlds.

Actually, Maserati can't survive on its own know, let alone compete with Ferrari. Despite many potential owners considering Maserati as expensive/exclusive as Aston Martin, the fact is that the company didn't compete in such market since ages.

Maserati had minor success with the 3200/4200GT models, the Quattroporte is a decent drive, but outclassed by the market at the moment, the Granturismo isn't particularly outstanding in any way. I question their reason for being in their current guise, anyway.

Many people think a Maserati costs around 180.000 €, but once they don't even check if that's true or not. So regardless of the real price (120.000 € or thereabouts) they don't buy it.

So because the perceived cost is high people don't even consider it? thats strange, if it looks more expensive than it is I suggest people might very well be keen.

Can't really see a problem of competing with Ferrari or not.
Also, they are relying on Ferrari for a large part of the design process, the engines are as of now designed and built by Ferrari according to Maserati's needs (decided by Ferrari), while the chassis' are still based on the 3200's and modified each time.
For the next gen of car they will be relying on the California/next 612 platform, so once again, they are unable to survive on its own.
Not only they don't have the economical resources, but now they also lack of a technical knowhow.

This is part of my point RE Lamborghini - Yes they're reliant on a big brother for assistance but how they handle it makes the difference. Even with the Germanic interior the Gallardo still has a sense of theatre and Italianate brio...even if it isn't as bonkers as a Diablo or Countach.

[Kitdy]

With Maserati I just think to myself, wouldn't Fiat make more money if they offered a Ferrari sedan (as blasphemous as that idea is)?

[IBrake4Rainbows]

But thats just it - this way they essentially get to offer a Ferrari sedan without offering a Ferrari sedan.

The Granturismo is a vehicle that confuses me - it's somehow never mentioned in the same breath as natural competitors like the California or XK. Curious.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I meant buyers weren't as pleased to enter a Lambo's dealer in Munich but to deal with the one from Milan. Stupid foreign language.


Honestly the GranTurismo was/is well acclaimed in Europe, as far as I perceived it.
Considered as a real, well, grand touring car it is possibly less flashy than a California (which is quite more expensive) or less catchy and declaratively sporty than the XK.

I personally think the Quattroporte was a car with no competition untile the Panamera and Rapide arrived, and now it is basically a 6 years old project based on 10/15 years old stuff.
The GranTurismo has a similar problem, old chassis, older engine. Not that buyers may know that, but it influences some of its aspects (like the weight or the fact that it is now underpowered compared to the competition) and even more journalists' reviews.


With the new QP they will definitely be selling a Ferrari sedan though, given it will eventually get a Ferrari-based chassis as well.
Not sure how that influenced the design of the 612.
Given you have: a smaller sedan in the pipeline (the supposed M5 competitor), the QP and the 612, you may expect the 612 to be more sporty (given also the 599 should be extremer in the future) and the QP to be more expensive. Just a guess.

BTW, in 2008 Laborghini released the new Gallardo (both Coupe and Spyder), while the Murcielago was already aging. I think they actually suffered the global economy more than other companies, even if also Maserati and Porsche felt the pinch.

[Commodore GS/E]

BTW, in 2008 Laborghini released the new Gallardo (both Coupe and Spyder), while the Murcielago was already aging. I think they actually suffered the global economy more than other companies, even if also Maserati and Porsche felt the pinch.

Hmmm... imo, the Murcielago is one of the best Lambo designs of all time. It's the only current design that isn't aging in my eyes. But you are right, Lambo suffered a lot, mainly because they don't have a real "entry level" car like Porsche (base 911, Cayman, Boxster). Moreover, the Lambo's are performance cars: not very usable in normal life and also rather uncomfortable.
I don't want to defend Audi or VW, but Lamborghini didn't really suffer under their ownership. This has many reasons.
1. Audi helped them to develope the Murcielago when Lambo itself wasn't able to present a real sucessor to the outgoing Diablo. Otherwise, the world might have lost another great sports car maker.
2. Lambo's quality and reliability has improved (which, as i see it, is down to the money the VW group invested) which is in my eyes another reason why more people buy Lambos nowadays.
3. Without Audi, there wouldn't be a Gallardo (which made Lambos more affordable to the public. Yes, it's still expensive, but if you consider that they've already sold 10.000 of them, it's clearly the company's financial base).
4. I'm not a great fan of this point, but Audi brought Lambo an AWD system. It may not be a good thing for a rwd enthusiast, but it did in some way help to improve their sales figures.

But I have to agree, the ownership wasn't only for good. Lambo lost some of it's soul during the process, at least for me. I'll openly admit it, I'm not a big fan of awd cars. Awd may have mad the Lambos safer (and also faster), but it also made them the target of old men and posers. Which makes me sad.