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Thread: Top Gear - Racist Comments

  1. #46
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    Clive "misinterpret" is an unusual term in this respect I think.

    I dont think any interpretation was present.
    A cheap joke was made ... and midly humourous in racial/national stereotype fashion ... but THEN it was built on and made more extreme and continued beyond the funny stage.

    I was always taught a simple tool to aid wider appreciation of issues like this......

    WHen someone makes a joke of or at a class or type of person or group THEN imagine your mum was one of "those" and ask yourself if you think she woudl be "Happy" to hear/read those words and comments.

    You rightly raised the legal siode of the debate and I'm not sure anyone is advocating imprisonment for Clarkson -- well not for this anyway But a recognition that there ARE limits and that these by definition are subjective is important I think and so individuals have to realise when they've crossed that subjective line.


    oh and ( THANK God ) we live in societies where proof of guilt is required ... no assumption can be permitted.
    Guilt has to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt.
    So what you see as lawyers "cheating the system" is they are testing that reasonable doubt and when "obviously guilty" go free it's because the doubt was found.
    I'd NEVER want it to be any other way. Because then you or I may be arrested for implications from posts here and imprisoned with no chance of defence on facts rather than opinion or belief.
    Last edited by Matra et Alpine; 02-08-2011 at 02:33 AM.
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  2. #47
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    în short, people these days can get away with blatant insults, in a society that still calls itself civilised.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    What bother me particularly about this current manufactured fiasco is that Mexico is a country that has such a hard time of things. Joking that Mexicans are lazy angered me.
    So anything slightly risqué should be censored? Please.

    In the UK, we don't have a culture of being racist towards those of South American origin as much as some in the US (probably because Mexico's not closely proximate to the UK, we don't get many Mexican / Hispanic immigrants and the typical British racist is too ignorant to know anything about those countries ).

    Mexico isn't usually a "target" or butt of racist jokes here, which made the TG presenters' comments all the more unusual - something which should have been an indicator to the enlightened that there was more going on that just casual overt racism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    In one of my political science courses, we looked into the maquiladora situation in Northern Mexico and it was extremely upsetting. Labour is typically female and these women suffer horrible abuses and work exceptionally long hours and are often in very violent communities. They live in shacks, barely scrape by to provide for their families, and in general, have terrible standards of living.
    The Irish potato famine was also pretty bad - but it doesn't mean that all jokes featuring Paddy and Murphy are off-limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    (I strongly feel that free speech is crucial in liberal democracies), but to defend their behaviour by saying they are attacking the PC culture (and nanny state in general) is not really a valid argument to me. Part of free speech is knowing when not to say something.
    Again, the manner and way in which the comments were made, and the emphasis placed on them should have been a clue to read between the lines. However, British humour, especially the style practiced by Clarkson & Co, is often obscure therefore I'm not really surprised to hear that some (and I have to say especially foreigners) took the comments at face value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    I think that the criticism that TG are receiving for this is pretty reasonable. Should they not do this in the future? I am not sure. If you do not like what you see, do not watch.

    I can see how a complication arises when you realize that TG is broadcast on a publicly owned station. In short, it is best that if you have these opinions that you share them in private, and that censorship - in my eyes - is not really desirable, perhaps baring extreme circumstances (calls to incite violence being one of them potentially).
    Do you think for one minute that everyone concerned with making those comments didn't think about the reaction they would receive? it was calculated - they want to make a point, further emphasised by their choice of guest on Sunday's show - Mr. Ross - who was recently sacked for making inappropriate comments on the radio. They were even cracking jokes about not mentioning Mexico, not causing controversy etc.

    It does seem that this wind-up is really having the desired effect, as it has brought a lot of stupidity (zealot liberals) out of the woodwork.
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  4. #49
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    Saw this on another site... does anybody have the link to Clarkson's comments?


  5. #50
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    Awesome response by Clarkson.

    I think the world needs more people with his outlook.
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  6. #51
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    ^^ call me ignorant, but I LOLd at that lol. The man makes a good point.

  7. #52
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    His point is indeed well-made and applies very nicely to 99% of the bullsh*t lobbed at Top Gear. However, in all the examples he gives the perceptive among us can tell that things are being said in good fun, however, in this specific instance Hammond (especially) seemed to immediately and viciously go for the throat. A lot less poking fun than usual, and a lot more poking with a sword.
    Maybe I'm just not perceptive enough to get the subtext here.
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  8. #53
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    it is telling that Mexicans always are at the forefront in the olympic discipline which is called "quick-walking". So his question at the end of his story is b.s.
    The point he is trying to make is that there is a specific type of English humor. The next point he is trying to make is that he and his collegues are good at producing that. I think in this subtle transition he goes terribly wrong. I can quote many examples of English Humour that I like, but his is generally below standard.
    So if he is trying to sell his insults as British Humour, (and subsequently accuses others of having no sense of humour at all) he fails to make his point.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  9. #54
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    It's an article which will be funnier to racists ( with a small 'r' we all have a little racism in all of us) and provide support to their attitudes, which I think is where Clarkson shows his lack of intelligence

    Failing to even CONSIDER the other side of the argument put to him.

    But that's why he's fun to read .... but only hope NEVER Lead

    To reflect another side .. HE got all protective when the Isle of Man residents protested and complained about HIS attitude when he moved there. MANY friends on the island were talling me it as it was for the real locals and he did NOTHING to try to see their points until he realised that money was never going to sway the Manx government ( Well not the relatively small amount he has for an island incomer )
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    It's an entertainment show
    yep. It’s taken me until just a few months ago to really start watching. I enjoy their contrived journeys probably the most. I know its 99% act but it is entertaining. Ironic that we have a similar Aussie Rules "Footy Show" here that is the same. 99% "entertainment" and 1% footy. In this case however the pretentious wankers on it (who are not funny or entertaining for me) preclude me bothering with it. It is popular though.
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    Egg Nogg 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesmoRob View Post
    ^^ call me ignorant, but I LOLd at that lol. The man makes a good point.
    It’s pretty much true that humor almost always must make fun of someone else. Either their bad luck or a characteristic (or perceived one). And in most cases the more exaggerated the funnier in. Taken this way all jokes are in bad taste to some extent. I do question just how well poms take being called poms. I rekon I could get hit if I tried it on a pom I wasn’t acquainted with. Let’s face it they have been busily flogging the sh!t out of each other for a few thousand years at least.
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    Egg Nogg 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

  12. #57
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    The point isn't that they took the piss out of some Mexicans... it was that they belaboured the point far beyond what was necessary to make the joke. Sure, ho ho ho, racial related piss taking towards your nation of birth. But then I will emphatically state it again, as will my cohorts in this endeavour. And then reiterate this way, and another, and then we shall all agree with each other that you're shite. Ho ho ho.

    It was amusing the first time; once you hit the seventh, you're just being two and a half men.
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  13. #58
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    crsis ... if you lot would stop throwing away Ashes matches *I* would get back to calling them POMS too
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisis View Post
    It’s pretty much true that humor almost always must make fun of someone else. Either their bad luck or a characteristic (or perceived one). And in most cases the more exaggerated the funnier in. Taken this way all jokes are in bad taste to some extent.
    Its true. The only problem with using the media to joke around like TopGear does is that you get a lot of people upset by not being politically correct, or in this case for taking a jab at someone's nationality.
    Jokes will always have a place in our world, but they will also have a time. Typically that time and place is between friends that enjoy having a good laugh at each another's expense.
    Most people function the same in that regard. Just for an example, I know I can say from personal experience that I don't care how much fun I get made of for being German by any of my friends. In fact, they can do it all day long if they want. However, if some random person on the street decided to call me a Nazi, then chances are I'd get a little upset depending on my mood that day.
    That's why I can understand that people get offended when jokes are made about them. They only get offended because the jokes are made by people that don't know them personally and/or haven't even seen them in their lives.
    That said, of course its still good to have a sense of humor about it, but everyone has a bad day sometimes, and being poked fun at by some random group of idiots can escalate that.
    Last edited by DesmoRob; 02-09-2011 at 12:29 PM.

  15. #60
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    "Writing in UK newspaper The Observer, British comedian Steve Coogan says Top Gear's offensive stereotyping has gone too far.

    I am a huge fan of Top Gear. I normally regard the presenters' brand of irreverence as a part of the rough and tumble that goes with having a sense of humour.

    I've been on the show three times and had a go at their celebrity-lap challenge, and I would love to receive a fourth invite.

    But I think that's unlikely once they read this. If, however, it makes the lads question their behaviour for a second - ambitious, I know - it will be worth it.

    I normally remain below the parapet when these frenetic arguments about comedy and taste break out. But this time, I've had enough of the regular defence you tend to hear - the tired line that it's "just a laugh", a bit of "harmless fun".

    OK guys, I've got some great ideas for your next show. Jeremy, why not have James describe some kosher food as looking like "sick with cheese on it"?

    No? Thought not. Even better, why not describe some Islamic fundamentalists as lazy and feckless?

    Feel the silence. They're all pretty well organised these days, aren't they, those groups? Better stick to those that are least problematic.

    Old people? Special needs? I know - Mexicans! There aren't enough of them to be troublesome, no celebrities to be upset. And most of them are miles and miles away.

    The BBC's initial mealy-mouthed apology was pitiful. It cited the more benign rivalry that exists between European nations (ah, those arrogant French, over-organised Germans), and in doing so neatly sidestepped one hugely important fact - ethnicity.

    All the examples it uses to legitimise this hateful rubbish are relatively prosperous countries full of white people. How about if the lads had described Africans as lazy, feckless etc? Or Pakistanis?

    What's more, this was all spouted by the presenters on one of the BBC's most successful programmes. Forget the World Service; overseas, Top Gear is more frequently the public face of the BBC. The Beeb's hand-wringing suggested tolerance of casual racism, arguably the most sinister kind.

    Besides, there is not a shred of truth in Top Gear's "comic" stereotype. I can tell you from living in the US that Mexicans work themselves to the bone doing all the dirty thankless jobs the white middle class won't do.

    What makes it worse is that the lads wear this offensive behaviour as a badge of pride, pleased they have annoyed those whom they regard, in another lazy stereotype, as sandal-wearing vegans with beards and no sense of humour.

    Well, here's some Twitter hot news: I don't have a beard, I'm not a vegan, I don't wear sandals (unless they're Birkenstocks, of course), and I have, I think, a sense of humour.

    I also figure I know something about comedy. It's true there are no hard and fast rules; it's often down to judgment calls. It's safe to say, though, that you can get away with saying unsayable things if it's done with some sense of culpability.

    I've been fortunate enough to work with the likes of Peter Baynham, Armando Iannucci, Chris Morris, Simon Pegg, Julia Davis, Caroline Aherne, Ruth Jones and the Mighty Boosh - some of the funniest and most innovative people in British comedy. And Rob Brydon too.

    It's a diverse, eclectic group with one common denominator: they could all defend and justify their comedy from a moral standpoint.

    They are laughing at hypocrisy, human frailty, narrow-mindedness. They mock pomposity and arrogance.

    If I say anything remotely racist or sexist as Alan Partridge, for example, the joke is abundantly clear. We are laughing at a lack of judgment and ignorance. With Top Gear it is three rich, middle-aged men laughing at poor Mexicans.There is a strong ethical dimension to the best comedy. Not only does it avoid reinforcing prejudices, it actively challenges them. In comedy, as in life, we ought to think before we speak.

    If I can borrow from the Wildean wit of Richard Hammond, the comic approach was "lazy", "feckless" and "flatulent". Richard has his tongue so far down the back of Jeremy's trousers he could forge a career as the back end of a pantomime horse. His attempt to foster some Clarkson-like maverick status with his "edgy" humour is tragic. He reminds you of the squirt at school as he hangs around Clarkson the bully, as if to say, "I'm with him". Meanwhile, James May holds their coats as they beat up the boy with the stutter.

    Some of the blame must lie with what some like to call the "postmodern" reaction to over zealous political correctness. Sometimes, it's true, things need a shakeup; orthodoxies need to be challenged. But this sort of ironic approach has been a licence for any halfwit to vent the prejudices they'd been keeping in the closet since Love Thy Neighbour.

    Archaic attitudes are endemic in a lot of motoring journalism. I confess I am an avid consumer and wade through a sea of lazy cliches to get to anything genuinely illuminating.

    Jeremy unwittingly cast the template for this. Twenty years ago, when I bought Performance Car magazine, his column was the first I would turn to. It was slightly annoying but unfailingly funny. Since then there have been legions of pretenders who just don't pass muster.

    There is a kneejerk, brainless reaction to any legislation that may have a detrimental effect on their God-given right to drive cars anywhere at any speed they consider safe. They often remind me of the US National Rifle Association who, I'm sure we can all agree, are a bunch of nutters. It's a kind of "airbags are for poofs" mentality and, far from being shocking, it's just shockingly dull.

    It would be fine if it was confined to grumpy men in bad jeans smoking Marlboros at the side of the Millbrook test track, but it's not. As I pointed out, it's the voice of one of the BBC's most successful programmes.

    The lads have this strange notion that if they are being offensive it bestows on them a kind of anti-establishment aura of coolness; in fact, like their leather jackets and jeans, it is uber-conservative (which, I'd suggest, is not very cool).

    Gentlemen, I don't believe in half-criticisms and this has nothing to do with my slow lap times. But, increasingly, you each look like a middle-aged punk rocker pogo-ing at his niece's wedding. That would be funny if you weren't regarded by some people as role models.

    Big viewing figures don't give you impunity - they carry responsibility. Start showing some, tuck your shirts in, be a bit funnier and we'll pretend it all never happened.

    THOSE COMMENTS

    * Mexican cars are just going to be lazy, feckless, flatulent, overweight, leaning against a fence asleep looking at a cactus, with a blanket with a hole in the middle on as a coat. - Richard Hammond.

    * Mexican food is "sick with cheese on it". - James May.

    * "That's why we won't get any complaints about this because at the Mexican Embassy, the ambassador's going to be sitting there with a remote control like this". - Jeremy Clarkson, who then slumped in his chair and faked a snore.

    - OBSERVER

    By Steve Coogan"

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