Swap Engine-Need opinion

[SilverArrowZ]

Hi~ I'm planing to swap my old junk with a new 1.6l engine, planing on swaping to 4a-g engines. But i need some advise, hope you guys can help.

If i swap to the black top 4age 20v, is it posible to turbocharge it? i mean it has quite a high compresion ratio. And what if i go for 4agze? which generation of 4agze should i go for? i heard the first generation is better because of the stronger crank.. is it true?

[Nigel]

Hi~ I'm planing to swap my old junk with a new 1.6l engine, planing on swaping to 4a-g engines. But i need some advise, hope you guys can help.

If i swap to the black top 4age 20v, is it posible to turbocharge it? i mean it has quite a high compresion ratio. And what if i go for 4agze? which generation of 4agze should i go for? i heard the first generation is better because of the stronger crank.. is it true?

the black top 20v is a really great n/a engine. Turbo charging 4ag engines is really not worthwhile. You have to fabricate nearly every part unless you want to shell out huge amounts of money to people like speed source. www.speedsource.net
The best way to turbo a 4ag is to get a 4agze and swap the super for a turbo. I would recomend a first gen 4agze with an HKS pulley, they have good internals, and the pulley gives a significant increase in power. Stock 4age (blue top) is 112, 4age (red top high comp) 130, 4agze 145, 4age (black top 20v) numbers range from 135-145. Another option, if you wanted to keep it N/A would be to rebuild a 4age and bore it out to 1.8L. I would not recomend doing this on the 3 rib blue top (I have burned through 4 of these in less than 6 months) but the 7 rib blue top. I am not sure about boring out the black top or the red top. You can also put the large port blue top head on the high comp. red top block which would give you a smoother power band with more torque (from the T-VIS) and slightly more power.

I hope this helps.

[SilverArrowZ]

Sure helps pal.. thanks

But the stock of other 4A-GE is hard to find at where i live, all of them are black top. I'm planing to charge it to 200bhp(on the flywheel, don't mind the wheels) if i get one. I've heard the blacktop can handle around 8psi of boost, wonder if it is true.

My lecturer in school advice me to go for the first gen 4agze if i want to swap to turbo. I don't really care about what mods, i just want 4AG class engine with 200ponies. I want to out run my friend in a Honda EJ5 with B16A3, his ride is cool

[Nigel]

instead of going turbo, why dont you just use a first gen 4agze with an aftermarket pulley, agressive cams, intake exhaust, aftermarket engine management etc, and that will pull you up to the 200hp range. If that is still not enough, you can do a 65 wet shot to top it off, and I think that would give you what you want.

where do you live, and what kind of car do you have?

[SilverArrowZ]

I live in Malaysia, my car is a 1980 toyota KE70, FR.

4AGZE is hard to find but they say it is not imposible, just need to pre-order and hope they find one in japan and ship it over.

4AGE black top is easy to find, recently there is 2 engine in stock but all sold out, more coming soon.

NOS is not really an option because there is only one suplier in my town and somehow it is not really "legal". Instalation fee is normal but refill of N2O is crazy. How much does you guys take to refill one 10lb bottle of NOS? It cost RM500 per refill for one bottle (roughly US$130). Only brand of nos in my town is ZEX, there are Nitrous Express at west malaysia, but no stock here. There are people who own Holley's NOS, but i heard they import it from somewhere.

I still prefer turbo.

[Nigel]

here it costs about the same as a tank of gasoline. Zex is a good brand though, it is just a shame about the refill situation. If you are very confident in your fabrication skills, you could go with the turbo. You will need lots of money to do it right though. You can also buy the kit from speed source, but it is not a complete kit, and it is designed for the mr2.

[SilverArrowZ]

Yeah thats what happen when there is only one source of nitrous refill in town. A friend of mine recomends me to use Nissan's SR20 turbo, wonder if it is good. (if i do, i'll be the first one in town to have that setup muahahahaha). A full tank of fuel here cost around us$15.

Now i'm confuse about my choice. I'm not sure which one to go for, all seems equally good. I'll have to check the price first

[Nigel]

I would say that you would be well suited to use the 20v black top with cams and intake and exhaust and keep it naturally aspirated. It would be much cheaper, and it would give you enough power. I think I would even recomend boring it out to a 1.8L before turbo charging. Turbo charging a 4age is a big ordeal.

[SilverArrowZ]

20v black top with cams and intake and exhaust

You mean modify the cam and intake and exhaust? How much horsepower a blacktop can give out if i keep it NA, i mean with all the modification i can find. Is there an aftermarket ECU for the 20v?

Hope you don't mind if i keep on asking question. Swaping engine is a big hit for my wallet.. i need to plan well first.. you'll understand, right?

[Nigel]

The latest source I read was a stock 20v has 160hp at the flywheel. It has a very high power band and pretty good cams already. You have to run it with 93+ octane gas. If you dont have that where you are you can use regular gas with an octane booster. The 20v has vvt, which no other 4age has. It also has lots of modification posibilities with the intake. There is an intake for it that uses 4 seperate cone filters... *drool* 4ages generally have pretty good exhaust manifolds. You can pick up a good 4-5 hp with headers. The exhaust is pretty restrictive, so with 2.5in back from the flex pipe, you can pick up another 5. The intake is very restrictive on 4ages, so with the best intake mod, you can pick up a good 6-7hp. the black top has pretty good cams, but you could run something like a 272 duration on the cams, which would give you a rough and powerful ride. You can expect to pick up another 10hp with 272 cams, and they will also narrow and raise your powerband. With the above setup you will have to rev the shit out of it, but you could be running up to 185hp. I think that a N/A car with a high power band and high compression will be more fun to drive. The power is instant, and you can really use your engine to brake. Also, it will sound really nice (especially with the 4 cone intake system).

[Nigel]

For aftermarket engine management, go with the smt6. It allows you to run all your ignition timing, injetor timing, etc through a pc. You can really pick up some hp this way. If you decide to go this route, here is a like of someone who tuned their aw11 with the smt6: http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?...&highlight=20v
I read through most of it planning to paraphrase for you, but then I just figured you could read it yourself

[Matra et Alpine]

...If you decide to go this route, here is a like of someone who tuned their aw11 with the smt6: http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?...&highlight=20v
I read through most of it planning to paraphrase for you, but then I just figured you could read it yourself

Sorry, Nige, we can't. It's passworded
Can you share a password with us, cut-and-paste or summarise pls ??

[Nigel]

This is a crap load of reading, but enjoy...

QUICK QUOTE I'VE GOT THE POWAH! SMT6 controlling ignition on MKI MR2!!!

QUOTE
posted by FoundSoul
I don't have time to post all the details and I've got a little more testing to do but I just figured out how to control ignition (and fueling of course) with the SMT6 on my MKI MR2-

It looks like a resistor will be needed between yellow and ground but I have to test to make sure 1K is right--

I'm about to spend the afternoon with my wife but as soon as possible I'll post full details and the resolution to this ongoing pain in the butt problem. I kept notes throughout my testing so you'll be able to see how I came to my conclusion.

Bottom line is when I pull timing thru the SMT6 software it idles down... when I add timing it idles up... and I'm getting a valid RPM reading in the SMT6 software console!

Stay tuned...

QUOTE
posted by FoundSoul
OK gotta do the disclaimer thing--- blah, blah just because this worked on my car blah doesn't mean it will work for you. I posted this here to hopefully help others to learn and to learn from others myself. Blah. If you damage your car, your computer, your blahblah, or anything else because you were trying to do something I talk about in this thread it's not my fault... make sure you know what you're doing or are at least willing to accept the consequences of trying something new when you aren't completely blah sure what you're doing. I'll be the first to admit I'm no pro mechanic or electrical engineer-- so read at your own risk!

Final Blah.

Sorry to have to do that but you know how it goes...

OK now the fun part. This post is just the preface to be immediately followed by my initial notes. Then there will be another post following that with what I'm learned since then-- while running and driving the car and adjusting timing above idle RPM range...

Read on...

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QUICK QUOTE

QUOTE
posted by FoundSoul
These are my notes from my testing-- I just jotted them down as I worked so they will reflect that- I clarified a few things before posting them here but they're still a little rough. Read thru them if you wish to see what I tried and what I learned-- you don't need to replicate my tests-- this is for information purposes only.

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With SMT6 wired with yellow to IGT from the ECU and White to IGT to the Ignitor:

Global Settings set with both positive polaritys ON and low level input ON. (All else OFF)

With these settings and wiring I get no RPM reading at all (says RPM-BAD)

Voltage Testing of Yellow and White to ground (just curious)
-----------
Multimeter to chassis ground and:
White wire: 10v A/C and 4.94v D/C
Yellow Wire: 1.9v A/C and (.9-1.0v D/C engine stumbles but doesn't die when I test this)

Change low level input to OFF
------------------------------
Engine immediately idles down and seems to be stumbling some-- RPMs between 500-750
BIG NEWS--- GETTING RPM READING THRU SMT6 SOFTWAR NOW-- ONLY CHANGE WAS DISABLING LOW LEVEL INPUT (SET TO OFF)

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So at this point my Global Settings are set with both positive polaritys ON. (All else including low level input set to OFF)
---------------------------------------------

Multimeter to chassis ground and:
White wire: (1.5-4v A/C-- voltage jumping all over between that range) and 4.94v D/C
Yellow Wire:
(4.7v A/C IDLE IMMEDIATELY SMOOTHED OUT TO 900ISH RPMS AND SMT SOFTWARE IS GETTING ACCURATE RPM READING!
and
(2.52v D/C AGAIN IDLE IMMEDIATELY SMOOTHED OUT TO 900ISH RPMS AND SMT SOFTWARE IS GETTING ACCURATE RPM READING!)

This is huge news! It appears that whatever the resistance is between the two multimeter probes when set to D/C 20 or A/C 200 is exactly the resistance the resistor needs to be between yellow and ground. Now I just need another multimeter to check the resistance of my multimeter when set on these settings.

As a test I wired the multimeter inline between yellow and ground- set to the 20v D/C setting (with low level input OFF so I was getting a valid RPM signal in the SMT software)

I adjusted deflection and RPM scales to put the idle rpm in a spot on the map that I could modify (not on the bottom row)... to do this I set RPM Scale to 300 minimum leaving the max unchanged and set deflection minimum to 1% leaving the max unchanged.
I let the car idle and set the timing for the cell it was now idling in (column 2, row 2) to -5. RPMS dropped just a hair to 860ish RPMS, I then changed that same cell to +5 and it idled up to 950-960ish RPMS!! I've got the powah!

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That concludes my original notes-- I've worked through some more stuff now and actually installed a resistor and driven the car around some- my next post (coming soon) will have more info on that.

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QUOTE
posted by FoundSoul
All of the following testing was done after my first posting this thread to give you guys a heads up on my progress.

So now I grab my multimeter and head to radio shack- I borrow their's (glad they had one I could use) and put my MM on 20v D/C setting (will read DC voltage up to 20v max) and set their MM to read up to 2MegaOhms resistance and check the resistance between the red and black terminals on my MM. It was just a hair under 1MegaOhm! (Alot higher than I expected) I then put my MM on the 200v A/C setting and checked the resistance again. It quickly went off the resistance scale so on that setting there was more that 2M-Ohm resistance across my MM.

So what I've learned at this point is 1M-Ohm of resistance seems to work (bear in mind I've only tested modifying timing at idle so far) and that an unknown amount of resistance greater that 2M-Ohms worked as well (still just at idle).

So I buy a 100-pack assortment of different resistors (from 1ohm to 1M-Ohm and a tons of steps in between) and head to the house. Next I take a 2.5 mile walk in the park with the wife and then as she's cooking up some grub I'm back in the garage.

I found a 1M-Ohm resistor in the pack (gotta read the bands on the resistor and confirm with MM) and tested it-- quick note-- I noticed earlier that with the SMT wired to intercept the IGT signal if I touched the yellow side wiring the SMT software would recieve an inaccurate RPM signal... weird.. If I let go then it says RPM-BAD again. I tell you this because if you manually test the resistor by holding it to the yellow or white wire you may get weird readings because you are touching it at the same time. I used a pair of Mechanix gloves to insolate me while testing this to prevent inaccurate readings. I confirmed that when placing the 1M-ohm resistor between yellow and ground I got an accurate RPM reading. (I used the black SMT wire for ground which is connected to the ECU's E1 wire for ground) Also remember low level input should be set to OFF when doing this.

So next I soldered it all together, heat shrunk and/or taped it up... and went for a test drive.

It works-- however just as I had to set my analog fuel map to add fuel all across the map to get the car to run right I'm having to modify the ignition timing map to get it to run right now. Leaving it set to all zero's seems like it should just pass through the 'stock' ignition timing and run like normal but it doesn't. Basically the car is slower than normal and I've got alot of tuning to do (I've had some knock as well). So I'll get on that tomorrow--

Kirk- I'd love it if since you've got am extra ignitor you'd be able to test different resistors-- maybe gradually stepping down closer to the 1K-ohm resistor that Perfect Power recommends... It should be fine to go with the 1K but I didn't have an extra ignitor in case I blew mine up...

I'm not sure if if using the 1M-Ohm resistor has anything to do with all zero's not being the default timing from the factory ECU.

Anyways-- I've got company over now so I'll post more later....

QUOTE
posted by kirkosaurus
So I take it you are not using either blue/black pullup wire at all?


Nope not using the pullup at all...

QUOTE
posted by PapoJ
Awesome, I guess my igniter was just tired maybe... I had those same indications on the RPM readings and the real low idle and then it just died.


That may be the case PapoJ-- but maybe not-- I used a 1/2 watt, 5% tolerance, 1M-ohm resistor-- which is 1000 times the resistance of the 1K resistor you used. I'm not sure if the wattage comes into play or not but yours was also rated at 1/4 watt. More testing needs to be done to determine if 1M-ohm is the way we should all go or not.

I'll be working on tuning my car in tomorrow-- first goal is to get it to run like normal. Then to tune in some more power...

I think it is worth the further testing to see if the 1K-ohm resistor can be used if someone is willing to do it. (Stepping down a little at a time-- like maybe to 500K, then 250K, 100K, etc down to 1K.

I'll see what Perfect Power and Claudio have to say about using the 1M-ohm resistor. But there is a light at the end of the tunnel here.... Hopefully I can get it dialed in tomorrow without any issues-- anyone wanna sponsor a dyno tune session?

more in the next post (10000 character max per post)

[Nigel]

here is part 2...

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QUOTE
posted by PapoJ
Are you able to control timing even at idle now?? Try using a varible resistor and just take a reading at the point were it runs best, that will be much easier than replacing resistors one at a time.

QUOTE
posted by kirkosaurus
Would a potentiometer be a varible resistor? Problem with that is where would you get a pot with that much resistance needed.

I so wish I could work on mine today but I promised my friend I'd help him replace the headgasket on his 92 Civic. He's stumped and having problems. That will probably take all day.

We've got several different type resistors at work, I could grab a few and try to work on that Monday night.

QUOTE
posted by FoundSoul
A potentiometer is a variable resistor-- I did see a 1M-ohm pot at Radio Shack the other day...

I reset my base timing to the Toyota recommended 10* BTDC before doing any tuning today.

I can control ignition advance/retard at all points in the rev range including idle.

Since setting base timing to 10* the car seems to run (under light throttle) pretty good with the IGN map tuned to all zero's. When I try to get on it though my 'get up and go must have got up and went'. It's not as fast up top as it was pre-SMT. Really it's not as fast anywhere but's it most noticable up top.

I'm still curious if the resistance of the resistor is playing a role in this.

Kirk-that would be great if you could test this further with lighter resistance resistors... I may do the same, like check the timing at a few different points (idle, 2500, 4500 RPMS) and then change the resistor to maybe a 680K-ohm resistor and see if timing changes at all at these points. But I don't want to drop down to the 1k range unless I A) see that lowering the resistance makes a positive difference or B) see that Kirk trys it and doesn't blow anything up.

Thanks for being the guinea pig on trying less resistance Kirk-- How much did your spare ignitor cost you? -- maybe a few of us could chip in a few bucks if you were to blow it.

QUOTE
posted by donalson
i got a spare one i could toss ya if ya need.... the wires have been spliced but you can always fix that w/ some solder and heat shrink ;-)

mark

QUOTE
posted by coolguy
PapoJ isn't the only one to have blown an igniter. I did the same thing last night trying to run the SMT in mode 20 using an RPM reference teed from the NE signal and an igniter signal going out to IGT. I was trying to use the SMT as a standalone ignition unit. When I changed the polarity to off, then engine ran smooth, but died about 30 seconds later.

I put my last spare igniter into the car today. Currently, I'm looking into running it the same way as the wiring diagram shows (intercepting the IGT signal) but then also sending the output signal back to the ECU through the IGF ECU input. See if I have any luck with that. Hopefully, I don't burn through another igniter.

UPDATE: I tried the latter method and it didn't seem to be any different. Still doesn't get a stable RPM reading. I'm still trying to figure out if maybe on the first method, I used the wrong "teeth per turn" and "teeth per firing" settings.

QUOTE
posted by PapoJ
Found Soul,
It sounds as if you lost all timing advance of idle. The ECU will shut down and use the igniter reference (static time) if it senses anything funny.
Right now I can't even get the SMT to link to any of my laptops (3 running 3 diferent OS) and even with the new software of the PP site, don't know whats going on now. Has anyone had this problem?

QUOTE
posted by NWBC85SC
I have a spare coil/ignitor here as well that i'd sell for cheap if someone blows one up, If i had been in on the project i would just offer it for free but im not....

Steve

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QUOTE
posted by PapoJ
Found Soul,
It sounds as if you lost all timing advance of idle. The ECU will shut down and use the igniter reference (static time) if it senses anything funny.
QUOTE
posted by FoundSoul
I don't think that's the case since if so it should stay at 10 degrees BTDC at all points in the rev range right? I checked my timing at several different RPM points under no load by lodging different sized spacers (mostly allen wrenches) in the TPS linkage to measure timing at various RPMS. Then checked the timing with a Matco timing light w/ Advance.


Here's the results:
All of these tests were run with the base timing set to 10 degrees and the SMT6's ignition table running all zero's.

RPM -- Advance -- Spacer Used -- Deflection %
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IDLE: -- 24 -- none -- 7.8
1530: -- 36 -- paperboard -- 9
2270: -- 40 -- .05 allen -- 11
2530: -- 41 -- 1/16 allen -- 11.8
3150: -- 40 -- 5/64 allen -- 12.5
3500: -- 38 -- 3/32 allen -- 13.7
3850: -- 36 -- 7/64 allen -- 14.5
4500: -- 29 -- 1/8 allen -- 15.7
4800: -- 25 -- 9/64 allen -- 16.5
5200: -- 23 -- 5/32 allen -- 17.6
5700: -- 23 -- 3/16 allen -- 20
Didn't measure past 5700 RPMs...


So next I want to try a couple things. I want to:

1) remove the resistor and check timing at the above deflection points

2) remove the SMT6 (jumper the AFR wire and IGT) and check timing at the above deflection points

3) depending on the results of the above test- I may try to change the value of the resistor to a lower value-- like 680K and check timing at the above deflection points

Then compare all of this data and see what conclusions I can draw.

I'm not sure if I'll get to do this tonight and I know I can't tomorrow night (Got pre-opening day tickets to The Passion movie--can't wait!) but I hope to really soon.

QUOTE
posted by kirkosaurus
I talked to the electrical engineer at work.
We discussed using a trim pot that would go from 1K - 1M ohm. That would be easier than switching out resistors.

The ignitor I have is off my parts car that I've already made money off of 3 fold and still have the engine and tranny.

Unfortuneately I won't be able to do any of this for the next couple of days. I have to finish up this headgasket job (PITA!), then repair someones computer. Plus I'm swamped at work.

Anyone wanna see what the top of a '95 Honda 1.5L aluminum block looks like?:

[thumb]http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/kirkosaurus/hg1.jpg[/thumb]
QUOTE
posted by Claudio RX-7
Hey guys,

Sorry i missed this post, ive been busy here now with VWs and SMTs. I see that FoundSoul has had success with his installation, i hope this is a good solution to get everybody up and running. As ive mentioned in another post somewhere here, i have been looking for anybody in the miami area with a toyota to try and do the installation my self so i can trouble shoot it.

I almost even bought a car just to try it out, but i havent found anybody. If any of you have any idea about somebody that would let me use their car as a test bed, let me know.

Keep me posted on the solution FoundSoul.

Later,

QUOTE
posted by FoundSoul
Claudio-- I will keep you posted. I've got a pretty decent test plan laid out as soon as I have some time to implement it. However before I feel like I can focus on the ignition more I'd like to get the fueling issue lined out. Here's a post on the new Perfect Power forum on that issue: http://www.perfectpower.com/forum/f...&TopicId=17

I may even disconnect the ignition mod capability until I line out the fueling issue-- It may be best to take one issue at a time. I might even find that the cause of my fueling issue is related to the timing issue...

Can you take a look at this thread and see what you think? I emailed you today about getting my account validated on your forums so I can post this issue there as well...

Thanks,

one more to go

[Nigel]

part 3...

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QUOTE
posted by FoundSoul
I made alot more progress last night and this morning... Perfect Power was checking into my fueling problem and had me bypass the SMT6 for the AFM wire--- So I clipped blue and purple off of the AFM wire and reconnected the AFM wire back together like stock...

Ignition was still wired into the SMT6 using the 1M resistor. So basically I'm still taking one issue at a time but I've made progress on the ignition side of things first... here's the nfo.

Took the car for a ride and my fueling problems were gone (makes sense since the SMT is out of the picture) though it would still miss and/or ping at higher RPMs (around 5000+). Seemed like the ignition was having issues there which is no surprise since I'm still working out the bugs there.

I emailed with Perfect Power and they believe the dwell is off-- the ECU sends the ignitor both the on/off signal for the timing but also the ECU varies the current it sends the ignitor based off of what the dwell should be. PP's theory is that since the SMT6 is in the way the ECU is seeing that and sending full current opening the dwell up wide open-- so they suggested going to the 1K resistor again to pull the current down so the dwell would be reduced. I wasn't adventurous enough to use a 1K resistor, and I didn't have a 680K, so I replaced my 1K resistor with a 470K this morning. A little less than half the previous resistance.

I've only had a 5-6 mile test drive (into the office this morning) but the car runs a ton better than it did last night and the only thing I've changed is the resistor value. I didn't get on it much as the roads were snowy and icy this morning but when I was able to get on it some it rev'd out to 7300 or so without any problems, and most if not all of my power is back.

I want to continue to experiment with this-- maybe dropping to a resistor in the 200-300K range. I wish I had a way to check dwell-- I may ask a mechanic friend to help with that...

As always.... I'll keep you guys posted.
QUOTE
posted by smelly
If it were me, I would be finding a way to intercept the NE signal; either the reluctor signal from the distributor to the igniter (my first choice) or the square wave NE signal from the igniter to the ECU.

I wouldn't be comfortable altering the direct control signal to the igniter. This signal is very igniter/ECU specific.

Sorry that I can't help any more than by making suggestions. I have a 4agze with a haltech, so no way I can even attempt to try it out
QUOTE
posted by FoundSoul
Just skipped the 200-300k resistor and went straight to a 100K... car still runs great.

I'm in full control of ignition via the SMT. If I zero the ignition map out the car runs like stock-- just like it's supposed to.

I'm wondering why I should even bother trying to get to a 1K resistor now. 100K seems to be working fine... What I really need to do is find a way/tool to measure dwell and make sure it's set right- I can modify the resistance until we get the dwell just right and then we would know exactly which resistor to use. Until then I may play around a little more but 100K seems to be pretty good.

Now I just need to get my fueling problems lined out. I'll be working on that with Perfect Power next.
-Rob

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OK- so I went and bought a Dwell Meter and the answer is.....

1K resistor works fine- Dwell is very very close to stock, 680 and 470 ohm resistors worked also but did not really seem to have any significant improvement over 1K on dwell so I'm sticking with the 1K.

Here's a chart of my test results.
All tests done at part throttle by wedging an allen wrench in the TPS linkage





So I'll throw together a quick summary/writeup/diagram on this issue soon and post it for all....

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Awsome SMT6 being used in these cars too...i am becoming a SMT6/PP dealer soon as i fire up my company to work on performance mods for tacomas....

SMT6 is a very nice little unit for that price!
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Hey FoundSoul,

Glad to see you finally got it all together and working. If you want some more help here is a guide i drafted up with Mark's help for SMT installations.

http://www.tuningtechnology.com/Dow...g_the_smt2.html

Let me know if you need more help.

Later,

hope that helps :P