2009 Corvette ZR1 LS9 Engine

[Matra et Alpine]

That information comes from an interview evo did with the former head of VAG Bernd Pischetsrieder. The interview is over a year old, and it didn't say that the company was insolvent, just that the Audi brand was proping up the rest of the group.

hmmm, that's a LONG LONG way from "losing money"
Audi is making MORE profit per car/plant than VW - no surprise there.
BUT VW's do NOT "lose money" !!
SEAT had a low patch last year and IIRC losses in the $12M ( million ), but they are targetted to pull back into the black this year. Skoda are the growing brand in the middle range VW bag.
I double-checked $5.1BILLION profit ... by no stretch of anyones imagination can that amount of profit ceom from just the Audi range

UK prices are of little importance to me, and the car is seen as somewhat of a performance bargain even in that market, despite the perceptions as to quality.
UK prices seem to be higher across the board compared to prices in the US; the UK seems to pay the same amount in pounds as we do in dollars, which is crazy. And I don’t think GM makes any more money on the Corvette in the UK than they do in the US, it really is just an image building car.

erm, let's see ... GM sell a car for $30K in the US and sell it for £30K in the UK. So WHO do you think is making the currency difference profit ? GM
Do you think it's dealers ? Not in the UK, they're squeezed tighter than a ducks arse !!
The UK prices were suggested before becuase it DOES remove the insane ego-driven business model and short-sightedness in the US market.

[bruxell]

hmmm, that's a LONG LONG way from "losing money"
Audi is making MORE profit per car/plant than VW - no surprise there.
BUT VW's do NOT "lose money" !!
SEAT had a low patch last year and IIRC losses in the $12M ( million ), but they are targetted to pull back into the black this year. Skoda are the growing brand in the middle range VW bag.
I double-checked $5.1BILLION profit ... by no stretch of anyones imagination can that amount of profit ceom from just the Audi range

The exact quote was "VAG currently lose money on every non-Audi car they sell." It went on to say that the company was currently making money, but that the situation was ultimately unsustainable.

erm, let's see ... GM sell a car for $30K in the US and sell it for £30K in the UK. So WHO do you think is making the currency difference profit ? GM
Do you think it's dealers ? Not in the UK, they're squeezed tighter than a ducks arse !!
The UK prices were suggested before becuase it DOES remove the insane ego-driven business model and short-sightedness in the US market.

Umm, I don’t think GM is planning on getting back to profitability by selling 10 Corvettes a year at huge markups in the UK: call me crazy I just don’t think that’ll make up the difference. I do think they’re looking for a way to import their one prestige model into Europe while minimizing the losses incurred in setting up a dealer network/servicing network, and trying to figure out how to market the car to a continent hard-wired into thinking it’s crap because it’s dash isn’t made from the same squishy stuff as a VW’s…

[kst8guy02]

That is ridiculous, GM never ceases to amaze me!

[Matra et Alpine]

The exact quote was "VAG currently lose money on every non-Audi car they sell." It went on to say that the company was currently making money, but that the situation was ultimately unsustainable.

What was your source tho ?
As I've said the ONLY brand currently in deficit ( and it's not a lot ) is SEAT. Skoda is VERY healthy and VW brand is doing well too.

Umm, I don’t think GM is planning on getting back to profitability by selling 10 Corvettes a year at huge markups in the UK

Not what I was saying.
The UK market tho dealers/manufacturers HAVE to make profit.
Hence I was pointing otu it's NOT skewed by the vagaries and egos of the big 3 in the US and the "focus group" mentality.
IF they actually priced their cars based on projected volume and necessary return then I would suggest the logical extensions is that most cars make profit and 'vette's lose less ( Or actually MAKE profit )

I do think they’re looking for a way to import their one prestige model into Europe while minimizing the losses incurred in setting up a dealer network/servicing network, and trying to figure out how to market the car to a continent hard-wired into thinking it’s crap because it’s dash isn’t made from the same squishy stuff as a VW’s…

It's crap because the interior IS crap compared to the local. Plastics are NOT all the same A £6K Kia plastic dash is different to the £8K VW Lupo !
True on the costs to distribute ... but Daewoo did it on cars <£10K And it's not that different for any new model as training/equipment is needed for it. Unless the manufacturers subsidise the dealers in the US ? Doesn't happen over here .... it's cut throat and the manufacturer will switch loyalties and prices to dealers based on their success. not ownership.

[culver]

Matra,

I generally respect your opinions but I really don't think things are as simple as you make them out to be.

I will say that the C6 interior's design isn't fancy but the materials are on par with what BMW was using in cars like the E39 5 series. This is from side by side comparisons, not domestic fan boy idealism.

As for the pricing structures, that is a VERY complex issue when you bring in all the extra factors such as labor contracts, opportunity costs etc. It is also way outside of the scope of this topic.

[Matra et Alpine]

Matra,

I generally respect your opinions but I really don't think things are as simple as you make them out to be.

I know, but we can't sort out world hunger at the same time

I will say that the C6 interior's design isn't fancy but the materials are on par with what BMW was using in cars like the E39 5 series. This is from side by side comparisons, not domestic fan boy idealism.

Look, feel, vibration ?
Just interested, does anyoen know if BMW use different materials for US market ? eg Colorado is well known for killing plastic dashes with UV

As for the pricing structures, that is a VERY complex issue when you bring in all the extra factors such as labor contracts, opportunity costs etc. It is also way outside of the scope of this topic.

True on all counts.
BUT if you think UAW is tight then read up on German employment law.
There are numerous cases in many industries where EUreopean multinational closes the UK factory because they'll be allowed to by our laws and retain the German factory because they could NOT FIRE ANYONE. Frighteneing - Motorola closed their most productive plant in the world and retained their German site !!! Cost to close was less
So, there are parallels.
But I think we CAN take the simpler view. A company that is being used in comparison of products profit HAS to be considered. Otherwise you will ALWAYS find a "better/cheaper product" but it isn't viable. If the stupid price comparisons didnt' IGNORE these facts it woudln't be so silly.

[bruxell]

What was your source tho ?
As I've said the ONLY brand currently in deficit ( and it's not a lot ) is SEAT. Skoda is VERY healthy and VW brand is doing well too.

“My” source, as stated was evo Magazine’s conversation with the former head of VAG. And as I stated the informations is somewhere over a year old. It’s not as if books can’t be massaged to make a company profitable, while it loses money on the cars it wells. Automakers do a lot of engineering work, and commercial vehicle business.

Not what I was saying.
The UK market tho dealers/manufacturers HAVE to make profit.
Hence I was pointing otu it's NOT skewed by the vagaries and egos of the big 3 in the US and the "focus group" mentality.
IF they actually priced their cars based on projected volume and necessary return then I would suggest the logical extensions is that most cars make profit and 'vette's lose less ( Or actually MAKE profit )

It’s not like other companies don’t do the same thing. VAG for instance loses about four million pounds on EVERY Veyron. Compared to that, the ‘vette makes for a pretty cheap halo. And the practice really predates the “focus group” mentality; it goes back to the 50s.
Honestly, I don’t think it has much to do with ego. I think it has a lot to do with attracting attention to the brand.

It's crap because the interior IS crap compared to the local. Plastics are NOT all the same A £6K Kia plastic dash is different to the £8K VW Lupo !
True on the costs to distribute ... but Daewoo did it on cars <£10K And it's not that different for any new model as training/equipment is needed for it. Unless the manufacturers subsidise the dealers in the US ? Doesn't happen over here .... it's cut throat and the manufacturer will switch loyalties and prices to dealers based on their success. not ownership.

I challenge you to look at a 2008 C6 dash and call it crap. I’ve seen them, and the entire interior of the car is rather nice, and on par with far more expensive European cars. And in their new issue, Road & Track rated the C6’s interior 2nd to the Audi R8’s in terms of “user friendliness” which I take to mean ergonomics. Other cars in the test? AM Vantage V8 and Ferrari F430… Your argument doesn’t really add up.
And in America Daewoo failed in its attempt at market penetration because its cars were high priced and low quality (That's being generous, they were crap.), so not really the best example.

[culver]

Well now that Daewoo is GM it certainly is true to say a GM interior is like a Daewoo interior

[Matra et Alpine]

[quote=bruxell;768070I challenge you to look at a 2008 C6 dash and call it crap.[/quote]
I've already commented positvely on interior shots elsewhere on UCP.

It was inevitable it was required as Europe expects much better materials than the normal 'vette buyer.
So they tried to dump the usual stuff here last year and got slated.
Now they know they HAVE to upgrade it if they wish to sell at the higher prices and profit availabel to them in Europe.

“user friendliness” which I take to mean ergonomics. Other cars in the test? AM Vantage V8 and Ferrari F430… Your argument doesn’t really add up.

Yes it does as "user friendliness" is a wide brush and totally dependant on the target market and driver.

And in America Daewoo failed in its attempt at market penetration because its cars were high priced and low quality (That's being generous, they were crap.), so not really the best example.

Yesm they were sub-par here too. But were well below other car prices and so did well for a while. Can I repeat the main point already made ... you saw them as "high priced" because the US market sells cars at an unsustainable profit level. So every car out to grow a business will always be "more expensive". Like high gas, you guys need to get used to high car prices and stop destroying the industry over there.

[bruxell]

I've already commented positvely on interior shots elsewhere on UCP.

It was inevitable it was required as Europe expects much better materials than the normal 'vette buyer.
So they tried to dump the usual stuff here last year and got slated.
Now they know they HAVE to upgrade it if they wish to sell at the higher prices and profit availabel to them in Europe.

Again, I don’t think they needed to improve the interior to woo clients in Europe, the market isn’t very big largely owing to differences in driving environment, and market prejudice. I think they spent more on the re-design this year than they would EVER re-coup through overseas sales.

Yes it does as "user friendliness" is a wide brush and totally dependant on the target market and driver.

As apposed to “crap” which is incredibly specific… The ergonomics of the interior are above par, the materials are above par for the price. What was the problem again? Oh, it was that the car is as fast and far cheaper than the competition even in Europe.

Yesm they were sub-par here too. But were well below other car prices and so did well for a while. Can I repeat the main point already made ... you saw them as "high priced" because the US market sells cars at an unsustainable profit level. So every car out to grow a business will always be "more expensive". Like high gas, you guys need to get used to high car prices and stop destroying the industry over there.

If the US sold cars at unsustainable profit levels then no one would sell cars in the US market. The US auto industry makes very little of its money overseas, as opposed to Japan, and Germany which export heavily, and the UK and Italy which simply don’t make profits at all. If no one is making any money in the US, then why do foreign carmakers design and engineer models specifically for this market? Why does any carmaker go through the ridiculous process of emissions and safety testing for the US market. Why indeed does anyone bother to sell cars here at all?

[Slicks]

No more arguments from kigango123?

[#3 Tasman Bloke]

An LS9 on a Corvette? BS. That could not happen, I mean, look how fast it goes already. That would bash a GTR to pieces and maybe could smash the Nurburgring record as well.
I hope it is lihtweight, becuase that would go WHOOSH!

[culver]

Just some more fuel for the fire that became kigango123...

ROADandTRACK.com -- Comparison Tests - V-8 Exotics: Final Thoughts (1/2009)

Road and Track's "best sports car V8". By a very narrow margin they picked the LS3 over the Ferrari 4.3L. They picked the Ferrari as the best "V8 powered sports car".

[harddrivin1le]

An LS9 on a Corvette? BS. That could not happen, I mean, look how fast it goes already. That would bash a GTR to pieces and maybe could smash the Nurburgring record as well.
I hope it is lihtweight, becuase that would go WHOOSH!

What do you mean, "That could not happen?"

It IS happening.

And it WILL "smash a GTR to pieces."

And it WILL be "lightweight" (~3,100 pounds).

A 10 year old LS1/6 speed Z28 Camaro with $12,000 worth of well chosen parts would also "smash a GTR to pieces."

The new GTR weighs ~ 3,800 pounds, which puts it at a distinct disadvantage. A new, base model Corvette (430 HP and 3,250 pounds) will give a new GTR a real good run for ~ $25,000 less.

[h22a]

no i dont think a base corvette would touch a GTR but the new ZR9 will murder it