Israel vs. Lebanon THE POLL Edition

[F1_Master]

We deserve some criticism for certain things...but in many ways we've spoiled the world in what it expects of us...that's our fault for being way to giving in many cases.

Other countries don't face these criticisms because they don't do near half of what we've done.

You can bash America all you want to, just do it with a coherent argument...to often your distaste for America clouds your thinking.

Unforunately Dino, we get the sh*t end of the stick.

If someone hates America, yeah, everyone's cool with it.
If someone hates the UK or Russia or China or Germany and aren't from America, they don't mind.
If someone hates said countries, and is from America, they're not.

They always ask, "WTF! Why do you hate us you American POS!"

As you said,

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

[Coventrysucks]

Other countries don't face these criticisms because they don't do near half of what we've done.

Prove it.

[crisis]

The US has since WW2 come to see itself as the world’s policeman. It sees itself as the perfect example of how a society should function which is fine but it seems to think the rest of the world should follow its example. It opposed Communism and fought it on behalf of other countries. It buys into any fight that suits it, sits in pious judgment of others yet hypocritically is guilty of many of the vices it accusers others of. Unfortunately for the population of the US they then are in a position where they reap the resentment and in some cases hatred of the world that their government constantly interferes in. That is not to say the US does not do good things but inevitably they contribute no more proportionally than many similar Western countries and in many cases only because there is some advantage to be gained.
As far as Lebanon and Israel go there is nothing different here. Both sides refuse to have any empathy for the other side’s point of view and both sides refuse to admit they are also to blame for the situation. Unfortunately for Israel it appears to be the sentiment from the top whereas on Lebanon’s side I am not sure.

[Dino Scuderia]

Prove it.

No, because your premise for directing me to is disingenuous, you know what I meant...I won't allow you to goat me with intellectual dishonesty.

[Coventrysucks]

I won't allow you to goat me

Baaa?

intellectual dishonesty.

...

just do it with a coherent argument...to often your distaste for America clouds your thinking.

So my arguments, speculations and hypotheses regarding US foreign policy is to be taken literaly as blind "hatred" of your country.

On the other hand, your seemingly literal statements about the ROW only giving "half" the aid that the USA gives is supposed to be taken as what exactly?

I think that making jingoistic comments about how great ones own country is / how crap everyone else's country is, with no regard as to whether there may be any factual element to the statement strikes me as being more than a little "intellectually dishonest".

[Dino Scuderia]

Baaa?



...




So my arguments, speculations and hypotheses regarding US foreign policy is to be taken literaly as blind "hatred" of your country.

On the other hand, your seemingly literal statements about the ROW only giving "half" the aid that the USA gives is supposed to be taken as what exactly?

I think that making jingoistic comments about how great ones own country is / how crap everyone else's country is, with no regard as to whether there may be any factual element to the statement strikes me as being more than a little "intellectually dishonest".

I never said any country was crap. Keep on tap dancing, it's a good show.

[Coventrysucks]

I never said any country was crap.

Other countries don't face these criticisms because they don't do near half of what we've done.

That sentance can only mean one of two things:

1) the USA is so great because it does >2x everyone else

2) The ROW is a pile of crap because it only does <0.5x that of the USA.

I still think that *Delete as applicable*(1) making jingoistic comments about how great ones own country is / (2) how crap everyone else's country is, with no regard as to whether there may be any factual element to the statement strikes me as being more than a little "intellectually dishonest".

[Dino Scuderia]

That sentance can only mean one of two things:

1) the USA is so great because it does >2x everyone else

2) The ROW is a pile of crap because it only does <0.5x that of the USA.

I still think that *Delete as applicable*(1) making jingoistic comments about how great ones own country is / (2) how crap everyone else's country is, with no regard as to whether there may be any factual element to the statement strikes me as being more than a little "intellectually dishonest".

You're summation of my statement is merely your opinion of it, nothing more nothing less. Take it as you will.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

What was that your saying about tap dancing?

Israel is being heavy handed, Lebanon should stop firing rockets into another country. of course this is an entirely simplistic point of view but it is what both countries deem as the main reason for their entry into this conflict, other than the whole Israeli incursions into Lebanon etc.

Targeting civilians when your after the governments is never a plan of action that should be condoned. As it stands however the Lebanese people are suffering tremendously because the Israeli's have the firepower to bomb them back to the middle ages - no electricity, no running water, no chance of escape.

The United States has to put up with a reputation of siding with the Israeli's because its, frankly, what it does. It tries to be seen as even-handed in the Middle East peace process, dealing with both sides fairly, but the fact remains - they arm only one side of the conflict, and have more to gain by having Israel on their side than another nation.

Of course the United States is allowed to do such a thing, but when it's attempting to cast itself as the balanced, caring and conciliatory 'World Citizen' it wishes itself to be seen as, choosing who to back, instead of finding a solution to the issue thats workable for both sides, Doesn't cut it.

[Dino Scuderia]

Well, if it were easy to solve the ME difficulties anyone could do it.

Israel have stated more than once in this latest conflict that they consider them selves responding to the actions of the sovereign state Lebanon, not just Hezbollah.

Hezbollah has some quite technologically advanced artillary, they just don't have the aircraft.

The members of the UN have been working on 'workable' solutions forever...it's not our responsibilty alone.

Again, no country does things on an equal basis...the double standard canard again.

[Vindesh17]

I can see the USA with all it's wealth choosing your #2 option which is 'do nothing'.

I guess you equate debt with wealth.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Well, if it were easy to solve the ME difficulties anyone could do it.

Israel have stated more than once in this latest conflict that they consider them selves responding to the actions of the sovereign state Lebanon, not just Hezbollah.

Hezbollah has some quite technologically advanced artillary, they just don't have the aircraft.

The members of the UN have been working on 'workable' solutions forever...it's not our responsibilty alone.

Again, no country does things on an equal basis...the double standard canard again.

I agree if anyone could do it chances are it could be done, but when the most powerful country isn't serious about it, how can anyone else be?

If Hezbollah don't have the aircraft, then why is Israel bombing Beirut International?

Of Course Israel would say they are responding, play the 'victim of terrorism' card and chances are you've got everyone on your side. however in this case the kidnapping of two soldiers did not warrant the battle that has ensued, bringing more casualties to the Israelis. And if these soldiers weren't already dead, attacking as they have is bound to have signed their death warrants.

The US takes itself seriously as an international leader - why not take the lead and silence those naysaying critics......

[Dino Scuderia]

I agree if anyone could do it chances are it could be done, but when the most powerful country isn't serious about it, how can anyone else be?

If Hezbollah don't have the aircraft, then why is Israel bombing Beirut International?

Of Course Israel would say they are responding, play the 'victim of terrorism' card and chances are you've got everyone on your side. however in this case the kidnapping of two soldiers did not warrant the battle that has ensued, bringing more casualties to the Israelis. And if these soldiers weren't already dead, attacking as they have is bound to have signed their death warrants.

The US takes itself seriously as an international leader - why not take the lead and silence those naysaying critics......

Guess what, there is a UN resolution to disarm HezBollah, but not Israel...you see only in happy make believe world both sides are treated equally, but this is the real world which you and Coventry should visit sometime.

I suppose the airport was bombed in case any of Hezbollah's friends who do have planes would want to setup a base there...bombing runways is usually one of the first actions of defense.

A main thrust of what Israel is doing regarding targeting infrastructure is to put pressure on the Lebanese gov't to bend to their wishes and stop/disarm Hezbollah. Call it an over reaction but it is by design to get a desired result.

Now the two-faced Lebanese Prime Minister is calling for the world to come in and help disarm Hezbollah who has been allowed to build up it's military for 6 years...and due to the UN disarm resolution I can't say he is off there...but now it's too late.

Of course he wants a cease-fire too....well they've let themselves get in this position whether they do and/or say they back Hezbollah or not...now Lebanon are Hezbollah hostages.

[kko]

This argument about the two options Coventry gave is ridiculous.

I agree.

So you expect us to help South Korea and North Korea when they start crap with each other?

What does that do for us? Oh that's right, that pisses them off knowing they're ally is an allying with an enemy, so they both turn and attack us.

As Dino said, that's a lame argument, and you know it would never happen.

Clique, China is the most powerful country, not the US unless you deteremine that by who has how many nukes and who doesn't.
[B]
By both your standards, if I see a person being mugged, I should help neither, and let the person by mugged, or be killed, right?

If you would just read what the man said (many times)

No.

I'm saying that if people want the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of complaints to stop then the options are:

1) Help everyone to the same degree
2) Do nothing

Otherwise you're going to have to put up with some complaints

He never said that they would be REAL applicable choises or that the US should do them at all, only in your response to youre whining about peoples whining. SO wether or not theyre realistic doesnt matter.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Guess what, there is a UN resolution to disarm HezBollah, but not Israel...you see only in happy make believe world both sides are treated equally, but this is the real world which you and Coventry should visit sometime.

The real world is a dangerous place, but I choose to live there. And it's interesting to see you use almost the exact techniques of questioning our grasp on reality as one Mr. Fleet500. Perhaps you both went to the same school of debate?

Of course there is a resolution to disarm the Hezbollah - they're supplied by evil, as opposed to the Israeli's, who bought there weapons fair and square and as such should be allowed to use them on whoever the hell they want.


I suppose the airport was bombed in case any of Hezbollah's friends who do have planes would want to setup a base there...bombing runways is usually one of the first actions of defense.

And a civilian airport, where people are trying to flee the conflict rush to escape, is a fantastic place to attack.

A similar thing happened in Bosnia, actually. passenger planes were shot down and everything.

A main thrust of what Israel is doing regarding targeting infrastructure is to put pressure on the Lebanese gov't to bend to their wishes and stop/disarm Hezbollah. Call it an over reaction but it is by design to get a desired result.

And I HIGHLY doubt that Israel will help this government rebuild following the attacks. I will call it an overreaction because, if we're going by a proportioned result, bombing the infrastructure of nearly 1 million people, making their lives hell, is not worth the lives of 2 Probably dead soldiers.

The Lebanese govt can't disarm Hezbollah, much like the Israelis. They're punishing the whole for the sins of a sect.

Now the two-faced Lebanese Prime Minister is calling for the world to come in and help disarm Hezbollah who has been allowed to build up it's military for 6 years...and due to the UN disarm resolution I can't say he is off there...but now it's too late.

Probably two-faced to appease the Hezbollah and prevent a civil war in his own country which his forces were bound to lose. Your right in suggesting countries like Iran have more to gain by having instability (or indeed a coup where the Hezbollah once more gain power) in Lebanon.

Of course he wants a cease-fire too....well they've let themselves get in this position whether they do and/or say they back Hezbollah or not...now Lebanon are Hezbollah hostages.

Indeed they are, so why fire at the hostages?

Good military practices indicate the point is to remove the target, not the hostage.

Again it's the civilians, those who have kept Lebanon reasonably peaceful for nearly 10 years, who end up copping the worst of this experience. I feel for the Israeli civilians who have been attacked as well, they don't deserve whats happened to them.