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Thread: Audi plans innovative new options scam

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Not in modern cars.
    The heating element will have a CAN address and ODB ( or extension ) protocol command for control and monitoring. Chekc otu fog lights on new Minis. Yes you can hook it up but the switch now has to be seperate too. So you've fecked up a perfectly good looking and easy to use car for a few bucks ?
    I didn't say it would look pretty or be safe ;-) But I have no doubt that something like heated seats could be hard-hacked, I mean there are a lot more complicated pieces of equipment out there that get hacked. Personally, I wouldn't cut holes in the seats of my brand new $50k Audi, but some else might.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Chekc out your next car purchase and service agreemetn.
    You'll find you are NOT covered if you make changes or modification and in soem countries you are not ALLOWED to make some types of modifications.
    I agree, there is a contract but it typically expires when the warranty period runs out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    NO. For example the code inside the ECU is patented, many parts of the car design are copyright. You have been given a "right to use" as intended. NOT carte-blanche to do with as you wish.
    Patents and copyrights as the name suggest is to prevent copy and redistribution. It doesn't prevent me from reverse engineering anything I bought. I know there are gray areas to this, but for genuine personal use I am free to do a lot.

    There is no law that says I can't look at the code inside the ECU. It just depends on what I do with that code. As well, if I go around modifying things with unintended consequence I may be legally liable. But isn't that price of freedom?

    IANAL so feel free to correct me where I am wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Once you're out of warranty then the manufacturer has little care or concern with you making modifications. They are not longer responsible and more importantly by then they've made the profit they required to make on the vehicle "life".
    That is an interesting point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    First off, if the contract says you have not purchased them then you do NOT own them. A car is not a single item. If you look closely you will find a order from whcih they create a "build sheet" for a model. The things you paid for you own. If it says you did not purchase the heating element and control then you do NOT have a right to use. Just because something is "ther" does NOT imply amy right to use and in the case they woudl offer a pay-as-you-go model then the contract will make that clear.
    I just don't ever see how this can be legal. I buy a car without the heated seat option, but the seat heating system is still installed. I decide to build a street racer and therefore part-out the factor equipment starting with the seats. Someone with a heated seat enabled car buys my seats, because their seats broke and they don't want to pay OEM prices.

    If I don't own the heating system I would be breaking the law by selling something I don't own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    MUCH simpler case ... you bought your computer ... and yet you WILL be arrested and jailed if you sell that computer to a nation state or its representative that is on the restricted access to technologies list So you "own" it, but you can't use it any way you like or want. Equally in your PC the chip has either Intel or AMD micro-code inside the CPU. You bought it, you use it daily BUT you have NO RIGHTS to it to make copies, or modify it or even publish it.
    I wasn't clear before...I am talking about personal use only. You are talking about copyright, resell, redistribution, etc but I am talking about what I can do in my own garage for my own personal use.
    "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

  2. #32
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    Read copyright and usage guidlines.
    The planet is FULL of examples where you ARE restricted in purchase and what you can and can't do.

    BTW, the simple act of READING an ECU code is actually enough to break copyright laws.
    Just nobody bothers chasing it down -- yet.
    Just like taking tape copies for mates of an album wasn't an issue for me 20 years ago. Now, the RIAA are trygin to find me and even more likely are convincing the network providers to stop me sharing.

    We have been discussing what MIGHT happen and in that case much of what HAS happened isn't useful to us as often in the past decisions are made to let things happen just because it's not worth the hassle. BUt 100% guarantee that if a maker gets $1B a year from apps in the future then they will VIGOUROUSLY defend it

    Also, this is a FUTURE suggestion. So you can pretty much forget "simple" mods. eg the heating element ITSELF will have a CAN bus connection and protocol command. On that one I can see them having to restrict in writing what you CAN do so you can't command it to burn someone

    Your example missed out that if the owner of the car HAD heated seats which broke and bought YOUR seats then they woudl get access to the heating system. THe smart-car will know you're swapping parts in that you have rights for and in all likelihood will have sent a message to the maker saying you've made the mod
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    BTW, the simple act of READING an ECU code is actually enough to break copyright laws.
    Just nobody bothers chasing it down – yet.
    I don't believe reading an ECU is against the law. The tools that are sold for such purpose may be against the law, but I don't believe (in the US) it is against the law to look at the code.

    If it is I would appreciate if someone could indicate the specific law or statute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Just like taking tape copies for mates of an album wasn't an issue for me 20 years ago. Now, the RIAA are trygin to find me and even more likely are convincing the network providers to stop me sharing.
    Again, you are talking about making copies of someone else's music and using it as your own. That is redistribution not personal use, and different from what I am discussing. If you buy a CD it is legal to copy it to your computer and make MP3s. You can copy those MP3s to your IPOD and it is legal:

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Home_Recording_Act]Audio Home Recording Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    The language of the act protects all noncommercial copying by consumers of digital and analog musical recordings regardless if the copy control technology is present or the royalty has been paid.



    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Also, this is a FUTURE suggestion. So you can pretty much forget "simple" mods. eg the heating element ITSELF will have a CAN bus connection and protocol command. On that one I can see them having to restrict in writing what you CAN do so you can't command it to burn someone
    I agree they can certainly try to make it very hard to circumvent, DRM for hardware, and I bet that will raise the cost with respect to not having the restrictions. Also, I still contend that at some level I will be able to cut a hole in my seat and connect power wires to forcibly drive the heating elements. Not safe, not pretty, not good for resale....but really the question is about legality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Your example missed out that if the owner of the car HAD heated seats which broke and bought YOUR seats then they woudl get access to the heating system. THe smart-car will know you're swapping parts in that you have rights for and in all likelihood will have sent a message to the maker saying you've made the mod
    I did understand that, it is exactly why I choose that example. My point is that it is illegal to sell something you don't own. So if I don't own the heating system as you stated, because it wasn't listed on the invoice, then it would be illegal for me to sell. Therefore, I must own the hardware or broke the law when I re-sold the seat.
    "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I don't believe reading an ECU is against the law. The tools that are sold for such purpose may be against the law, but I don't believe (in the US) it is against the law to look at the code.
    Well see, that's where the actual LEGAL situation and the practical differ.
    Read the copyrigth closely on ANYTHING and you'll see you are NOT allowed by the copyright to make any copy or to convert, translate or transmit ... and well to actually look at it then you are already doing all of the above.
    If it is I would appreciate if someone could indicate the specific law or statute.
    Well I'm not going to search US copuright law for you, the papers are all available - and take about a year of reading to have studied enough case law to graps the nuances
    However, can give you a clip from the recent agreed Digital Millenium copyright act as it required change to US law. I hope this one little snippet assists to demosntrate how little rights you have ....
    Code:
    (1) to provide that from October 28, 2000
    it shall in general be unlawful to circumvent a technological measure 
    that effectively controls access to a protected work;
    The data you want to look at and use in your ECU is NOT open coded to a public specification ( the ODB-II interfaces are though ). So you cna look at stuff they LET you look at and not the rest.
    Again, you are talking about making copies of someone else's music and using it as your own. That is redistribution not personal use, and different from what I am discussing. If you buy a CD it is legal to copy it to your computer and make MP3s. You can copy those MP3s to your IPOD and it is legal
    I'm getting bored.
    That is a "fair use" example and ripping ECU contents is not "fair use" by anyones definition and certainly crackign an app to avoid charges is NOT.
    I agree they can certainly try to make it very hard to circumvent, DRM for hardware, and I bet that will raise the cost with respect to not having the restrictions. Also, I still contend that at some level I will be able to cut a hole in my seat and connect power wires to forcibly drive the heating elements. Not safe, not pretty, not good for resale....but really the question is about legality.
    You just said it. YOU make that change, sell the vehicle and it overheats and causes an accident then there IS case for you being sued.
    I did understand that, it is exactly why I choose that example. My point is that it is illegal to sell something you don't own. So if I don't own the heating system as you stated, because it wasn't listed on the invoice, then it would be illegal for me to sell. Therefore, I must own the hardware or broke the law when I re-sold the seat.
    NO, because you did NOT PROVIDE THE RIGHT TO USE IT.

    I'm sorry, but you are going to try to apply logic and in a way that is at odds with legal practice. I've tried to point and instead of seeing the restriction you want top come up with a way to avoid that. To answer you will require an explanation of 30 years of copyright legal case history and I@m not up for that. It was hard enough having to learn it -- and the people who taught me were getting paid $6K per day ... so I change my mind. Pay me $6K per day and I'm happy to find and cite all the case law you desire



    Of course, we might want to take the VERY practical approach and consider that a company as big as VAG is NOT going to do something in a way that they cannot protect their revenue So EVERY argument you may wish to suggest will have/will be considered and a clause entered into contracts to clarify and prevent abuse.
    Last edited by Matra et Alpine; 05-22-2010 at 11:06 AM.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  5. #35
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    I think this has gotten way off track because you are talking about circumventing software. I am talking about modifying hardware. We are talking Apples and Oranges.

    If I bought a base model TV from some vendor at retail price, but I could get all the functionality of the premium model (that retails for twice the price) by taking the TV apart and soldering in some R&Cs myself; would that be breaking the law?

    No. Would I void my warranty, probably. If I sold it and it then caught on fire and burned the buyer's house down; could I be legally liable, yup.
    "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

  6. #36
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    NO Alastor.
    Please go back adn review. the whole thread is on the topic of apps to use features in cars.
    I've tried to point out that more devices appear in cars on the CANbus and are controled by protocol commands. THe fure will increase it./ Exmple given right at the start of Min fog lights. You can fit them, but until a dealer ( or a hack ) tells the ECU then you can't use them ... unless you bastardise the look adn value of your car by bodging in wires and switches.
    As pointed out .. not what an Audi owner will do and in the future not what you will be able to do

    Your example in that post exemplifies your desire to "win" this discussion.
    There is no "winner", there are facts and the way industry, law and business works.

    First as I'd said, if you have to at any timne crack an encryption to find how to do it then yes you've broken the law.

    BUT, more importantly you've screwed your warranty .. and if you really think you can get features in modern electronics by simple mods, then the tech you're thinking of is 10 years behind the current norm. NOBODY does it with parts ... they are often NEEDED too, but they also have internal fuses burned in chips or gates hard -programmed. All of whcih again are protected by law and msot importantly have turned your device into a possible "brick"... Go ask all those first gen iPhone hackers

    Woudl you seriously risk "bricking" a $50K car tyo save yourself $50 ? no, didn't think so.

    Only in mental masturbatoin do we contemplate such things.

    as you've said at the end ..... so WHY would you do it and want to sell it on unless you were a criminal and needed to launder some clean cash ???
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    NO Alastor.
    Please go back adn review. the whole thread is on the topic of apps to use features in cars.
    I've tried to point out that more devices appear in cars on the CANbus and are controled by protocol commands. THe fure will increase it./ Exmple given right at the start of Min fog lights. You can fit them, but until a dealer ( or a hack ) tells the ECU then you can't use them ... unless you bastardise the look adn value of your car by bodging in wires and switches.
    As pointed out .. not what an Audi owner will do and in the future not what you will be able to do
    I don't disagree with how you think devices are 'connected' in the car. But my point is that it is not illegal to wire up the headlights using a switch if you have paid for said headlights. I am not going to speculate on when or who this makes sense to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    BUT, more importantly you've screwed your warranty .. and if you really think you can get features in modern electronics by simple mods, then the tech you're thinking of is 10 years behind the current norm. NOBODY does it with parts ... they are often NEEDED too, but they also have internal fuses burned in chips or gates hard -programmed. All of whcih again are protected by law and msot importantly have turned your device into a possible "brick"... Go ask all those first gen iPhone hackers
    So did any of these 'hackers' go to jail? No, because it is not illegal to jail-break your iPhone. Using your example, why can't I jail-break my heated seats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Woudl you seriously risk "bricking" a $50K car tyo save yourself $50 ? no, didn't think so.

    Only in mental masturbatoin do we contemplate such things.

    as you've said at the end ..... so WHY would you do it and want to sell it on unless you were a criminal and needed to launder some clean cash ???
    My curiosity is more when the car is old and used and the warranty has long expired. What could a determined individual gain with some time and know-how? Not to mention that everyone is different and for some people it isn't really about money.
    "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I don't disagree with how you think devices are 'connected' in the car.
    But it#s key to the point in question.
    You are thinking "old school" and this is a discussion on an emerging tech built on the plans of the car industry to move cars to "fully connected".
    But my point is that it is not illegal to wire up the headlights using a switch if you have paid for said headlights. I am not going to speculate on when or who this makes sense to.
    Again, you are ASSUMING that they are stupid enough not to limit what you can and cannot legally connect to.
    Using LOGIC to say "I paid for it so it's mine" is wrong where the law is involved. You only "purchase" the rights a manufacturer gives to you. You are used to those being unrestricted. I come from a business where we restrict owners rights all the time, it's the norm, expected and lived with.
    So did any of these 'hackers' go to jail? No, because it is not illegal to jail-break your iPhone. Using your example, why can't I jail-break my heated seats?
    First, they're not arrested because it's not worth the hassle.
    Again, don't apply LOGIC to law, all the time we trade-off the cost benefits.
    Second, Apple respond by doing updates to guarantee bricking the device. A MUCH lower cost solution to the problem .... and then also realised that they were in a different market and now Apple buyers weren't just the trendies who didnt' care too much about internal tech. They were in MS and Nokias world and adjusted their marketing from then on.
    My curiosity is more when the car is old and used and the warranty has long expired. What could a determined individual gain with some time and know-how?
    The same as they can now.
    You can add a feature that cost $500 when new for a few pennies in some cases.
    BUT you're not affecting the maker nor even the purchase price on your used vehicle by that much - the same pennies.
    So you're not affecting the market, the maker or most owners. So as stated before .. nobody is going to bother taking out any case. Not worth ther return. Don't assume that no court case means legal - it only means costs more to take the case than the value it saves/returns/protects.

    Not to mention that everyone is different and for some people it isn't really about money.
    Not what the thread is about tho'

    and yes you're right, but with lots of bodged in switches that don't fit the interior and have no routing to the units expect many of these future cars to end up here .... Your Car is Shit! Name and shame the worst chav cars
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  9. #39
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    Anyone who does a lot of car mods knows, nothing is impossible.

    Heated seats? Get real.

    You can have my ECU, when you pry it from my cold, dead, hands. LOL!

  10. #40
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    ^^^ aha, raises the question. What do we mean by ECU.

    Engine Control Unit - only looks after the engine then possibly OK.

    However, if it controls emissions you may find it illegal. Maybe we just need to call it "car software" to cover all the parts

    If it controls ABS or other safety devices then the potential for MASSIVE lawsuit if you crashed into anyone
    and looking forward to the time frame this was looking in to then we amy ahve automatic braking and steering systems by then. Don't want some spotty copmuter nerd hacking code to make my car go faster ( or enable my heated seat ) if it then cannot be guaranteed that it will not kill me

    "nothing is impossible" .. true. But worth the return ? and legal on public roads ??
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  11. #41
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    I gave up legalities when I removed my catalytic converter. yawn

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