The Alfa Romeo problem

[ascended_master]

As an owner of many Alfas over the years & the current owner of a Spider S4 I am clearly an Alfisti. So why do I have so little interest in current Alfas? I'll tell you why, front wheel drive! Now, I will say that FWD is great in certain applications where packaging & economy of manufacture are critical, and I have owned several Minis (real ones). However these mundane criteria have never informed the purchase of any of my Alfas. I want exotic race bred engineering wrapped in the finest creations of famous carrozeria, NOT some warmed over FWD Fiat chassis with an iron block motor!

What exited me about Alfas as a youngster was the idea that you could realistically own something like a Spider, engineered by Puliga, styled by Pininfarina basically a great looking car with an all alloy twin cam motor and a close ratio five speed box. The Montreal had a race car engine, the Alfetta had a trans-axle box & De Dion rear suspension! To a young man like me this kind of thing was seriously appealing, particularly when mixed with a bit of that Nuvolari, Farina & Fangio heritage.

I thought it was such a shame that they dropped the Alfetta chassis & Nord motors when they released the 916 series cars, imagine if that GTV had been RWD, it could have been an incredible little GT car.

If Alfa are going to move forward they need to re-focus on advanced engineering for the keen driver. Going out & winning some races would help too.

[LeonOfTheDead]

As an owner of many Alfas over the years & the current owner of a Spider S4 I am clearly an Alfisti. So why do I have so little interest in current Alfas? I'll tell you why, front wheel drive! Now, I will say that FWD is great in certain applications where packaging & economy of manufacture are critical, and I have owned several Minis (real ones). However these mundane criteria have never informed the purchase of any of my Alfas. I want exotic race bred engineering wrapped in the finest creations of famous carrozeria, NOT some warmed over FWD Fiat chassis with an iron block motor!

What exited me about Alfas as a youngster was the idea that you could realistically own something like a Spider, engineered by Puliga, styled by Pininfarina basically a great looking car with an all alloy twin cam motor and a close ratio five speed box. The Montreal had a race car engine, the Alfetta had a trans-axle box & De Dion rear suspension! To a young man like me this kind of thing was seriously appealing, particularly when mixed with a bit of that Nuvolari, Farina & Fangio heritage.

I thought it was such a shame that they dropped the Alfetta chassis & Nord motors when they released the 916 series cars, imagine if that GTV had been RWD, it could have been an incredible little GT car.

If Alfa are going to move forward they need to re-focus on advanced engineering for the keen driver. Going out & winning some races would help too.

Welcome here

Winning many races in various Touring championships proved people don't bother about that either though.

[ascended_master]

Welcome here

Winning many races in various Touring championships proved people don't bother about that either though.

I was actually thinking about Grand Prix races! I used to think it was great when Alfa Romeo was in Formula 1 last time round in the 80's & counted myself as a fan of the team, particularly when they had the only V12 on the grid in '81 & '82.. that's the kind of thing that gets me going!

Obviously Fiat canned any further F1 adventures at the time favouring Ferrari, but I think a return to F1 with Alfa Romeo could drive a lot more sales than the Ferrari's do. With the current regulations (2.4 rev limited V8's etc) why not field an Alfa Romeo GP team, Fiat already supply Ferrari engines to other teams so why not keep it in house & drive sales of their own vehicles in more modest price ranges?

[LeonOfTheDead]

It may be a good idea, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be complaining about a lack of competitiveness (and we know that to be competitive you need a super budget) and so on. If the new teams would manage to get some decent results, then it could be an idea, but so far only Lotus is doing something worth and they are not exactly saving money on F1.

When Alfa Romeo was in Formula 1 in the eighties... I'm not sure if it was worth the money (I actually don't have a clue how much it costed to be in F1 in those days), but I'm not sure if there are actually enough people out there even remembering that. Consider Renault, does its presence in F1 do any good to selling more cars?
Surely some enthusiast will buy them also because of this, but I don't think it counts that much to say "yes, F1 helps selling cars".
Surely they had to justify their image of "small super hot hacthes" maker, but on the other hand they always had a motorsport division with plenty of single seaters project, so I guess it was also slightly easier to do it (also considering they bought an existing team and its assets).

I'd rather invest in more limited edition models a la 8C Competizione, even smaller cars, all in a few hundreds units. That had quite a large impact.

[ascended_master]

As I remember, Alfa's F1 effort last time round was more interesting to the car enthusiast than it was successful on the track, sadly. They developed many, many different engines (raced & un-raced) including a 3.0L V8, 3.0 Flat 12, 3.0 V12, 1.5L V8 turbo, 1.5L V6 turbo, 1.5L 4C turbo & a 3.5L V10, & all the time getting beaten by the Cosworth kit cars! One can only imagine that this was rather expensive at the time... The tragic loss of Depailler was also a terrible blow to the team as they began to find form.

In the modern era though the formula is much more restrictive, as we all know. If Toro Rosso & Force India etc can get on the grid, then surely a case can be made for an Alfa Romeo GP team run along sensible lines. Alfa Romeos & Mercedes wheel to wheel at Monza has got to appeal to any enthusiastic motorist & would generate the kind of interest in the marque that was present for so many years in it's long history.

I'm with you on the limited production cars too. Obviously the 8C is phenomenal, but why not offer something more affordable? Sbarros Diva concept looked so good, an Italian Elise effectively. If Lotus can build these cars, then Alfa could too, keeping it simple, elegant & focused as they did with so many of their Zagato bodied models (Junior Z).

[LeonOfTheDead]

Toro Rosso and (even more) Force India are exactly low budget teams though.
I don't know how much money Proton put into Lotus, or if would have survived on its own after Bugatti released the Elise mk1.

The 8C did well attractive young buyers to the MiTo and now to the Giulietta, but this won't last, and no matter how good those cars are, they need an halo car, and no, I don't mean a GTA version per each model (which would be great nonetheless).

Smart sold the Crossblade at a ridiculous price (and possibly a minimal cost), everything is possible then!

[Ferrer]

Miles, best post-war Alfa? There are many jewels. From the last of the traditional sixes, the 2600, to the new sixes from the late 70's and the rather glorious GTV6. Without forgetting the fours, from the car that arguably created the sports saloon, the Giulia TI to the very successful GTA. And of course the soft tops. Undiluted elegance in Giulietta form or aching beauty in Duetto form?

Post-Fiat would be a rather more difficult question though.

[pimento]

Post-Fiat would be a rather more difficult question though.

SZ/RZ for me. Love that monster.

[henk4]

As an owner of many Alfas over the years & the current owner of a Spider S4 I am clearly an Alfisti. So why do I have so little interest in current Alfas? I'll tell you why, front wheel drive! Now, I will say that FWD is great in certain applications where packaging & economy of manufacture are critical, and I have owned several Minis (real ones). However these mundane criteria have never informed the purchase of any of my Alfas. I want exotic race bred engineering wrapped in the finest creations of famous carrozeria, NOT some warmed over FWD Fiat chassis with an iron block motor!

What exited me about Alfas as a youngster was the idea that you could realistically own something like a Spider, engineered by Puliga, styled by Pininfarina basically a great looking car with an all alloy twin cam motor and a close ratio five speed box. The Montreal had a race car engine, the Alfetta had a trans-axle box & De Dion rear suspension! To a young man like me this kind of thing was seriously appealing, particularly when mixed with a bit of that Nuvolari, Farina & Fangio heritage.

I thought it was such a shame that they dropped the Alfetta chassis & Nord motors when they released the 916 series cars, imagine if that GTV had been RWD, it could have been an incredible little GT car.

If Alfa are going to move forward they need to re-focus on advanced engineering for the keen driver. Going out & winning some races would help too.

Welcome to UCP.
While I can relate to many of your points, I do think that under the current economic circumstances, most of it can be considered as the romantic point of view. Ever since the Neue Klasse BMWs put an end to the reign of the Giulia as the sporty limo pur sang, it has been a struggle to survive (and probably also during the reign of the Giulia). A production level of half a million cars will not be realised by calling back in the ancient days of the Giulia TI Super, but it requires a mass production vehicle that appeals to the masses. Unfortunately for Alfa the masses do not consist of the keen type of driver you describe. The fact that some poll recently discovered that the majority of BMW 1-series owners was not even aware of the fact that it has RWD, speaks volumes.
Just like you I can drool over an old GTA (Rindt's Transam car was at Goodwood last weekend as well as the F1 type 182), I am a keen Citroen driver, so count me out for RWD.....

[Ferrer]

SZ/RZ for me. Love that monster.

But that's arguably a pre-Fiat Alfa.

On a Pieter-related note, I wonder how Alfa has managed to survive for so long, economic crisis or not.

[pimento]

But that's arguably a pre-Fiat Alfa.

On a Pieter-related note, I wonder how Alfa has managed to survive for so long, economic crisis or not.

True, it depends on whether you go from released after takeover or began development after takeover. I went with released because it suited my purposes.. and some of its design themes were incorporated into future releases.

[Ferrer]

True, but as you said the hardware is most definitely pre-Fiat. Fiat-bound Alfa Romeo starts with the 164, the first car from outside the smallest of the line up to not be rear wheel drive. And then the 155, 145, 146, front wheel drive GTV and Spider... and the list goes on and on.

You could even dare to argue the one of the things the made some of the late 20th century and early 21st century Alfas great is something that was desinged back in a time when being beatiful and sounding well was everything that was important to italians.