Sport Auto Super Test of ZR1

[Matra et Alpine]

^^^ yes, but remember the North Loop has a few places where torque is the winner and other places where handling wins out.
So by upping power, the 'Vette can be tuned up and stiffened up to make it fast .. but (and I can quote from the drivers mouth) it leaps around on a few of the corners and rises and needs balls of steel

THe comparions of these two highlights that in 20km different cars will be fast in some areas and slower in others. So these two come close ( if we are going to at least read past some of the BS )

So if it is a lovely smooth track and straights and especially uphill straings ) then the 'Vette's a good'un. NOW take that to "real road" conditions and how many sections of open road can we drive on where we can take a car to it's max in a straight line ?
Nope, real roads ( and most tracks ) are twisty, bumpy and no big long straights.

The 'Vette is the ideal car for the US market where there ARE big long straight sectons of roads and gentle sweepers with few other cars to slow you down ! Freddy's car is modified and set up to handle the 'RIng and did not do so good on the F1 track.
Another point, do you want a car you need to change for different conditions or in the case of the GT-R a car with smarts and electronics that tries to do that "on the fly" ?

Personally I'd have neither !! The GT-R is a dreadnoght class where we all want to ride Sunseekers

WHat we need now for the 'Ring is the kind of car tracking the WRC ahs used for the last few yuears to see in real time and in comparison. This years 24h at the 'RIng had GPS enabled tracking on ALL the cars and it was damn good for keeping up with the race activitiy.


EDIT: re coilovers ... there are many more choices available and MANY manufacturers who can build custom springs for coilovers. Als varibale platform enables easy adjustment of the psring itself to have pre-compression etc etc. None of this is "easy" or perhaps even possible given the leaf construction. I'd bet if hundreds of cars had leaf springs then there woudl be more options. As it is it's a vry limiting design and does NOT offer as much adjustment. Hence why all the race COrvettes run coils

[LeonOfTheDead]

So why the GT-R performed so bad on TG track then?
Not absolutely bad, but it was 2 seconds slower than other cars it beat or equaled on the Ring. I think the GT-R is very set up for the Ring too.
Any other track times with other cars times?

Not that I'm very interested in flaming another debate, just curious.
No wait, I actually don't care.

[clutch-monkey]

No wait, I actually don't care.

+1
all i know is that if forced to choose, i'd have the ZR-1, for reasons not (entirely) related to speed, and irrelevant to it's 'ring time.

[Ferrer]

They may say it but it isn't true. Also, so long as the GTR is automatic only I would have no interest in one. I like my three pedals.

Everyone who is interested in driving does.

+1
all i know is that if forced to choose, i'd have the ZR-1, for reasons not (entirely) related to speed, and irrelevant to it's 'ring time.

Seconded.

[Matra et Alpine]

So why the GT-R performed so bad on TG track then? ........ 'Not that I'm very interested in flaming another debate, just curious.

As long as we can keep a debate going and AVOID the "flame" nonsense then it's healthy
Curiosity == good !!

WOW ... coming 14th is now BAD ? !.19ish is pretty good for a standard car I'd say
Especially when you look at the prices and read usability of the competition around it.
I'd actually expected it to do worse. It's no lightweight. It's 4WD and it was a dry level tarmac track.

Oh and for me if forced to chose between these two ( 2 which I don't consider the best btw ) then I'd NOT chose the GT-R ... It's not got any soul in real life, it's lardy arsed and NOTHING about it inspires. At least a 'Vette sounds and looks evil

[clutch-monkey]

Oh and for me if forced to chose between these two ( 2 which I don't consider the best btw ) then I'd NOT chose the GT-R ... It's not got any soul in real life, it's lardy arsed and NOTHING about it inspires. At least a 'Vette sounds and looks evil

sounds like it's got a few evil tendencies up it's sleeves too with what you were saying about handling on the leaf springs. i like my cars with a few vices

[Ferrer]

They're not vices, they are character.

[LeonOfTheDead]

As long as we can keep a debate going and AVOID the "flame" nonsense then it's healthy
Curiosity == good !!

WOW ... coming 14th is now BAD ? !.19ish is pretty good for a standard car I'd say
Especially when you look at the prices and read usability of the competition around it.
I'd actually expected it to do worse. It's no lightweight. It's 4WD and it was a dry level tarmac track.

The time isn't bad, but it isn't as fast as the supercars it supposedly beat at the Ring with their official time. It's very fast being as fast as a Scuderia with about the same power but more weight, but 2 seconds off say the Zonda on a short track, while on the 20 kg German track they should be (according to Nissan) equally fast.

Surely an extreme set up on a supercar could prevent it for achieving a good time on the Ring with its tormented surface, even when Chouraqui tested all his exotics there the Koenigsegg was slower than the others mainly because of its set up, too stiff.

[Matra et Alpine]

The problem is "could" is maybe right
But we'll never know !!

Power and gearing on the MUCH longer straight sectons of the 'Ring coudl easily take 5-10 seconds off laps. Also, the TG lap is a short lap and so the stresses on the tyres and the brakes are in relatively short bursts. the 'RIng is a differnet beast and thus there are really too many variables to ensure one time on one track means a time on another. Same for all tracks. Best you can do s about SIMILAR tracks ... but the 'Ring is unique

[roosterjuicer]

Nope, real roads ( and most tracks ) are twisty, bumpy and no big long straights.

Not in America my friend. we probably have more straight, smooth, long roads here than we have twisties.

especially in my neck of the woods. I think the most "handling" my car does is on this new roundabout they put in up the street (which is probably a good thing).

[G35COUPE]

Lets remember that the GTR is a V-6. Just about its other competitors are V-8s. And the GTR being as heavy as it is, still spanks or comes close to spanking its competitors. This should be food for thought.

[f6fhellcat13]

The GTR, with its unhyphenated V6, is turbocharged, as I'm sure you've been told many times when you've brought up the exact same point. Thus you cannot compare it accurately to the performance of a naturally aspirated V8.

[culver]

Lets remember that the GTR is a V-6. Just about its other competitors are V-8s. And the GTR being as heavy as it is, still spanks or comes close to spanking its competitors. This should be food for thought.

It's a 3.8L twin turbo V6. That's not exactly a small displacement motor and the turbos do a lot to add power. If it's like Nissan's other V6s it's a very well behaved but heavy motor. I think the NA VQ motors are around 460lbs. This one is likely every bit as heavy as the motor in the ZR1.

[Guibo]

The time isn't bad, but it isn't as fast as the supercars it supposedly beat at the Ring with their official time. It's very fast being as fast as a Scuderia with about the same power but more weight, but 2 seconds off say the Zonda on a short track, while on the 20 kg German track they should be (according to Nissan) equally fast.

Surely an extreme set up on a supercar could prevent it for achieving a good time on the Ring with its tormented surface, even when Chouraqui tested all his exotics there the Koenigsegg was slower than the others mainly because of its set up, too stiff.

Take a look at this lap chart, and pay close attention to the tightest turn and the fastest turn, a high speed kink:
http://www.autozeitung.de/sites/defa...st_strecke.jpg
When TopGear tested the Zonda F convertible and the Veyron in their mag, they noted that a tight, twisting course would make the Veyron's mass much more apparent. The GT-R is not different in this regard. There are plenty of test commentaries indicating it likes fast, sweeping tracks.
And there is simply no way The Stig can be as familiar and comfortable with the GT-R as Suzuki. If you watch his in-car lap video, it's very messy. He fights understeer and oversteer sometimes in the same corner, and nearly stuffs it in a couple of places. Whereas Suzuki uses oversteer to point the car and invoke the AWD system for the best drive out of corners.

On the other hand, we don't have any test of the Zonda being driven in the same conditions as the GT-R (development driver with 100% commitment, good weather, and thousands of laps). The 'Ring is also a momentum track and not as hard on brakes as other tracks; there are long sections that allow the brakes to cool.
The Koenigsegg was also slower because its power delivery was so savage, with power arriving between 7-8k rpm. This is also the problem with looking at peak power and torque figures, with no regard as to how smoothly the power can be applied.

I've heard it mentioned elsewhere (not confirmed by anyone of real authority) that on the bumpy 'Ring, the weight of the GT-R and minimal lift keeps its tires firmly planted where lighter cars with quite a bit of lift (like the ZR1) and stiff suspension can be knocked about rather viciously. Sport Auto mentions something to this effect. Those tiny corrections, getting the ZR1 back to the ideal line, they add up over the course of a long lap. This also affects a driver's confidence, because if he knows of a bumpy section coming up, the fastest and safest way may be to take the section with a slight trailing throttle and reduced speed. If the GT-R, which handles bumps much better, can take the same section flat out, then guess which car has the higher power/wt ratio for more of the time through that section.
This is not to say that the ZR1 is slow. Nobody is saying the ZR1 is slow. It's just that the 'Ring offers up unique challenges that few people understand. Some Ferrari drivers who have taken their Scuderias on the 'Ring can understand how their car doesn't perform as well as expected: in some places with lots of compression where ground clearance is an issue, the Scuderia runs out of it, so instead of gripping and turning, it's skating nervously.

[Guibo]

In addition to the 4WD, the GTR's DSG provides nearly instant shifts compared to the relatively agricultural action of an American V8 manual gearbox.

Indeed. And "in between" shifts, it's still sending power to the wheels where in the manual car, the power/wt is briefly ZERO. With the effect of drag, a Corvette is momentarily losing speed where the GT-R continues to accelerate. In this chart, it's apparent that the Z06 is losing valuable tenths on each gearshift.


If you move the Z06's acceleration curve over to account for the gearshift (as might happen were it equipped with DCT), you'd see the Z06 could hit 130 mph about a second faster. And this is just 3 shifts. Imagine how many shifts take place over a single lap of the Nurburgring...

FWIW, Road & Track has the Panamera Turbo w/PDK equaling the Z06's 1/4 mile time. Same power, but it weighs 655kg more.