Driver training: is the government really doing its job?

[fpv_gtho]

lately driver training has been a hot topic, with after the government trying to feed us BS like "speed kills", claiming (tainted) statistics prove that over 40% of fatal crashes are caused by speeding, and now theyre trying to say that by controlling the driving youth for several years under ridiculous conditions will make them a better driver. i for one think that something should be done.

currently, the RTA says that a minimum of 50hours/6months driving needs to be completed on L plates, minimum 12 months (normal 18 months) needs to be completed on Provisional P1 plates and a minimum of 24 months (normal 30 months) needs to be completed on provisional P2 plates. my suggestion, is to replace the green P2 plates, and implement a minimum 200hours of supervised driving on L plates. you would think that surely you would become a better driver if you spent more time understanding the rules and being exposed to changing conditions

[Matra et Alpine]

...currently, the RTA says that a minimum of 50hours/6months driving needs to be completed on L plates, minimum 12 months (normal 18 months) needs to be completed on Provisional P1 plates and a minimum of 24 months (normal 30 months) needs to be completed on provisional P2 plates.

WOW !
In the UK, there is NO minimum training times.
You apply for a test when you want to - minimum age 17 ( 16 in Isle of Man )
You have to pass a theory ( easy ) and then a 30 minute driving test with an examiner.
There is no legal requirement to have undertaken ANY training !
Then you get to drive with NO 'L' plates and you're treated the same as every other driver on the road.
Scary huh

[fpv_gtho]

it is just a bit from my perspective, but i suppose your government has its reasoning, yet i dont know about the state and federal governments here. they seem to try and taint all the facts to fall their way so that somehow they can implement things to raise revenue. prime example, the federal government claims over 40% of fatal crashes are as a result of speeding, yet under further examination some of those crashes subjected to the testing also included driver fatique, drink driving, bad conditions etc. then they try and use this to justify the implementation of speed cameras. they claim they are placed in accident black spots where they think they will do good, but in reality they place them where they know theres a high frequency of speeders going just above the limit that they can claim revenue off. even after collecting something like $200 million in revenue each year, they still have the hide to cut the budget for the roads

[Matra et Alpine]

....taint all the facts to fall their way so that somehow they can implement things to raise revenue. prime example, the federal government claims over 40% of fatal crashes are as a result of speeding,...

We have exactly the same here in the UK.
There HAS been a backlash against the cameras positioned for revenue coleection.
Some have been take OUT after it was clear there was NO reason the area was an accident blackspot !!!

Check out "Gatsos" at this site - http://www.speedcam.co.uk/index2.htm - see how some people have taken it into their own hands in the vandalising section

Here's a snippet not often shared by the authorities .... there has been an increase in road deaths since 2001 despite a huge increase in speed cameras in the UK. Derbyshire and Hampshire's figures show that doubling the number of cameras increased road deaths by a third.

[fpv_gtho]

well so far the worst ive seen here is someone fire bomb one of the fixed cameras. that prompted the state government to stick a second camera there just to monitor the speed camera

you would think though that somethign is a miss if the french claim only 9% of fatalities there are from speeding and the government here has bloated the figure out to 40%

[Coventrysucks]

I am planning to do not much more than 20hrs over the summer.
It seems to be enough for most people.

The problem is not with how long you drive, although it helps, but what you are tought.
I think there is not enough teaching of proper techniques, and general roadsense.

Did you know that the push-pull steering technique tought to learners as the "right" way to do it, actually came about when in the mid 1930's the Police asked top racing drivers which was the "best" way to steer.

So Push-pull is great for 1930's race cars, but is it the best way to drive a modern power assisted car?

Much of the stuff tought is similarly outdated.

[Coventrysucks]

Re: Speed kills (A stupid thing to say as "speed" can mean 3mph or 300mph)

According to a dft report including a survey of 60,000 crashes in 2001 by 13 Police forces in the UK

The key precipitating factors in crashes were:
Failure to give way (14.6%)
Failure to avoid a vehicle or object in the carriageway (27.9%)
Loss of control (19%).
Poor turn/ manoever (8.4%)

The driver's personal contributory factors:
Behavior - careless/ reckless/ thoughless (18.4%)
Failure to judge another vehicle's speed (22.6%)
Failure to look (16.3%)
Looking but not seeing (19.7%)
Innattention (25.8%)
Inexperience - of driving (4.8%)
Excessive speed (12.5%)

So then, Speed causes 30% of all crashes (labour Govenmtent claims)
NO it is a CONTRIBUTORY (not cause) factor in 12.5%
The Labour govt' is so anti car it isn't funny.

See the whole report here:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ety_028073.pdf

The results (more in depth) are on p42/43

[Matra et Alpine]

...
So then, Speed causes 30% of all crashes (labour Govenmtent claims)
NO it is a CONTRIBUTORY (not cause) factor in 12.5%
The Labour govt' is so anti car it isn't funny.

I've seen this broken down further in an analyis which actually says speed was only 4%. I'll try to find the refernce, it was an e-mail a long time back.

Hopefully, once they implement the public reporting of the accident fogures at each camera site we'll start to see the truth. Though they have agreed to group death and injury in the report, so 2 deaths and 28 injuries will come out worse than 10 deaths and 21 injuries ( 30 v 31 )
.
At the end of the day, it's too good a revenue stream for the British government to turn it's back on it. One police force admitted that the moneu collected had gong to pay 1/2 million in overtime to police officers handling the cases and another 1/2 million on refurbishing the offices the police work in. And they wonder why they've lost the trust of the people !!!!

Crazy statistic of the week ..... hospitals in Britain unfortauntely can infect those who are in for treatment with a life-threatending disease. The statistics show that HOSPITALS cuase more deaths in Britain than speeding.
So where are they spending the money ? Not in making hospitals cleaner so the infection doesn't get a hold, but in REVENUE-GENERATING cameras to fleece the driver.

[crisis]

currently, the RTA says that a minimum of 50hours/6months driving needs to be completed on L plates, minimum 12 months (normal 18 months) needs to be completed on Provisional P1 plates and a minimum of 24 months (normal 30 months) needs to be completed on provisional P2 plates. my suggestion, is to replace the green P2 plates, and implement a minimum 200hours of supervised driving on L plates. you would think that surely you would become a better driver if you spent more time understanding the rules and being exposed to changing conditions

You get the job. That is the answer. Supervised driving. Putting coloured plates on an unsupervised drivers car is a further, typically cynical measure to be seen to be doing something without actually having to it. All these extra plates and licences will of course have to cost more revenue, I mean money. Forget mandatory time on provisional plates and compel the P Plate drivers to undertake continued training during this time. When the instructors are satisfied with the drivers attitude and ability , promote them to a full a licence. Many will never graduate, and rightly so. That is much too hard and complex a system though, so we are stuck with the govenrments, "let em die and collect the cash from the ones who are still breathing" policy.

[eyebrows]

i think the biggest problem is lack of expirence with differnt situation (rain grease oil road) and the best way of fixin this is to give them expirence, but how is the main question. my answer is once every 6 months every L and P plater goes to a race track for an entire day. they learn how to drift, how to controll the drift, pick an apex and all the crazy stuff first time drivers usually do(eg burnouts doies). but before and after the track day you have theory lots of it... giving u info like what dangers to look out for on the road how to identify them etc. i think this would be a great way of getting kids to understand that speeding doesn't always kill rather stupid things like tail gating at high speeds and even low speeds. any way what do you think about that and with the 200hours that wouldn't stop me from doing stupid shit on the roads cos its going to be my first time in a car and its a novolty thing.

[Falcon500]

Did you know that the push-pull steering technique tought to learners as the "right" way to do it, actually came about when in the mid 1930's the Police asked top racing drivers which was the "best" way to steer.

So Push-pull is great for 1930's race cars, but is it the best way to drive a modern power assisted car?

Much of the stuff tought is similarly outdated.

Do you knowa better way? plaming can have the stearing wheel reffed out of your hand if bump stear where to occour and crossing your arms up doesnt really help fast reactions when they are most needed and in case of a crash your likely to break both arms....push pull keeps the stearing wheel firmly in your hands...make not slow speed manuvers can be done in other ways its suggestable on normal traffic which usuallymakes an effort to straigten out most roads...also if you look closely the drivers in most race catigorys still use a similar technique they stillkeep both hands on the wheel firmly wrapped around it....

[Falcon500]

i think the biggest problem is lack of expirence with differnt situation (rain grease oil road) and the best way of fixin this is to give them expirence, but how is the main question. my answer is once every 6 months every L and P plater goes to a race track for an entire day. they learn how to drift, how to controll the drift, pick an apex and all the crazy stuff first time drivers usually do(eg burnouts doies). but before and after the track day you have theory lots of it... giving u info like what dangers to look out for on the road how to identify them etc. i think this would be a great way of getting kids to understand that speeding doesn't always kill rather stupid things like tail gating at high speeds and even low speeds. any way what do you think about that and with the 200hours that wouldn't stop me from doing stupid shit on the roads cos its going to be my first time in a car and its a novolty thing.

as fun as it sounds...it really sounds like a really stupid idea...teaching everyone shit like this will raise a generation of hopt heads and over confident wankers...and statistics prove that race car drivers usually are ordinary on the road and that drivers who complet a advanced driveing course are more likly to crash because of over confidence and to much faith in their skill...

[Matra et Alpine]

as fun as it sounds...it really sounds like a really stupid idea...teaching everyone shit like this will raise a generation of hopt heads and over confident wankers...and statistics prove that race car drivers usually are ordinary on the road and that drivers who complet a advanced driveing course are more likly to crash because of over confidence and to much faith in their skill...

In the UK the Insurance companies offer a discount if you have passed the Advanced Driver test of the Institute of Advanced Motorists.
Part of what they teach is the car control but the major part ss the observation and "road-craft".
BUT all the "vanising point" stuff comes from race tracks. ( and in the UK the Police roadcraft manual )
So I think it IS a good idea.
Personally I've taken all friends and my own kids "under my wing" and taken them to track days and deserted car parks and taught them skids, brake and power control.
I disagree with everything you've said .. the last part being the accident rate and generation stuff. It's the kids who go WATCH track racing and then try it going home that are the problem. ANYONE who spends time ON track realises that it's more fun there and that they can go to higher limits than could EVER be applied on road and generally behave more on the road.
I've seen cars stuffed on roads where it si clear the driver had a problema nd didn't have a CLUE what to do. We can all hit a patch of diesel on a corner - more so now than EVER before in the UK Training and experience on a track will have exposed the driver to front and rear wheel drift and built up the experience on what to do to recover.

[Falcon500]

Its not what he said thati disagree withits the way he went about it the stupid dont think about it way and i gave him an answer in kind...some insurence companys here offer the same kind of bonus but statistics do say that young males especiallywho do this are just as likly if not more liklyto stack...

[eyebrows]

i didn't mean to put that and i qote myself "and all the crazy stuff first time drivers usually do" i ment more that they can pushing their cars but instead of being on the road while doing it they would be on a track, ne way it was poorly worded, at least the main point got across u need expirence but people can't get it when they only expirence a drift on the road where there is a lot of traffic etc this is more dangerous than teaching them how to do it, i also think that fines aren't big enough to disencourage people from breaking the law and there arn't enough police officers out there to stop people from doing it.