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Thread: Actual Horsepower Of '60s/'70s Muscle Cars

  1. #31
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    Here is the explanation as to how and why many '60s muscle car engines were underrated:

    "Insurance companies started to balk about insuring these wild engines on the street, especially with young drivers under 21. Some insurers set an arbitrary minimum of 10 pounds per horsepower for young drivers. This the the reason for the GM front office policy in the late '60s of limiting production models to the 10 lbs/minimum on curb weight. (This is why Chevy cut the rating of the L-79 327 engine from 350 to 325 hp in '66.)

    And then there were the safety critics. Ralph Nader was hollering about more than the Corvair in the mid-'60s. The safety do-gooders were saying that horsepower was a chief killer on the streets and highways. Detroit didn't pay much attention until some Washington Congressmen began singing the truth. Then it was Panic City.

    What it all boiled down to is that Detriot never raised hp ratings above the range of 425-450 hp, regardless of what the engines actually put out. And the companies were more apt to keep the ratings below 400 hp if at all feasible.

    Did they lie? Not necessarily. What they did was use a rating trick that had been used for years for trucks and marine engines. They simply rated the power at some point below the power curve. You're all familiar with how a full-throttle power curve for an engine rises very swiftly in the medium range, then bends over into a smooth, round peak at the top. There's no law that says you have to rate the engine right at the very peak of the curve.

    The trick worked just as well on free-breathing car engines. Take the Mopar 440-6 Pack. It was rated at a modest 390 hp at 4700 rpm. But the true peak here was 430 hp at 5600 rpm. Chrysler engineers just looked at the line at the power curve, and maybe stuck a pin in the line at 4700 rpm. The 390 hp sounded a lot less dangerous to insurance people than the true peak of 430 hp.

    The next question is: How do we figure the true power peak from the advertised torque figure?
    Easy. If you study dozens of power and torque curves for high-performance V-8 engines, you will find an interesting pattern emerging. That is, the torque at the peak of the power curve is roughly 15% below the maximum torque in the mid-range (where torque is rated). And the rpm at peak power is roughly 50% above the rpm at peak torque. So really all we need to know the estimate of true peak power is the true peak torque at what rpm. And since the factories never fudged on torque ratings, this gives us a perfect way to estimate what the various muscle car engines actually put out at the peak of the power curve.

    Just as an example, assume the engine has a maximum torque of 470 lbs/ft at 4000 rpm. The torque at peak power would be .85x470=400 lbs/ft, and the peak of the power curve would be 1.5x400=6000 rpm. And the actual hp at the peak calculates out to 457 hp. That's all there is to it."
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  2. #32
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    What was the quality of fuel like in the 60's in the US? Because a lot of these engines ran really high compression ratios am I right?
    Horsepower wins races. Torque pulls trailers.

    http://www.nuerburgring.de/fileadmin/webcam/webcam.jpg <Live cast from the 'Ring.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by -What- View Post
    This list is garbage and false. Put some old muscle on a dyno and watch those numbers TANK to today's inline-4 specs.

    This is abominable hogwash.
    Based on what? Your extensive experience with muscle car engines? Or your experience with stock four bangers that put out over 400 hp? (Hint: If you're talking about Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Mitsubishi... therer aren't any.)

    So go ahead and "call bs" on the numbers... I'm sure you know much better than they dynoes, the car magazines, the guys who spend every day working on these cars.




    Quote Originally Posted by -What- View Post
    Put some old muscle on a dyno and watch those numbers TANK to today's inline-4 specs.
    I just had to bring that up again. Find me one inline four that puts out four hundred horses... most likely it has MPFI, Forced Induction, VVT, 4 valves/cylinder, (you probably don't know what those are...) and costs by itself than most vehicles.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post


    I just had to bring that up again. Find me one inline four that puts out four hundred horses... most likely it has MPFI, Forced Induction, VVT, 4 valves/cylinder, (you probably don't know what those are...) and costs by itself than most vehicles.
    Sorry, could not resist...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  5. #35
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    ^ Der uber 4...

    But I think what's trying to be said is that today the cars horsepower would have dropped. I'm thinking back to the top gear episode where the Lamborghini only had 90 horsepower left...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    Sorry, could not resist...
    neither can I .... and all done with a USED engine block that had ALREADY clocked up 100Ks
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Canuck View Post
    ^ Der uber 4...

    But I think what's trying to be said is that today the cars horsepower would have dropped. I'm thinking back to the top gear episode where the Lamborghini only had 90 horsepower left...
    No- that was a Maserati Merak, which had a pathetic 190hp engine.
    I'm dropping out to create a company that starts with motorcycles, then cars, and forty years later signs a legendary Brazilian driver who has a public and expensive feud with his French teammate.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingofthering View Post
    No- that was a Maserati Merak, which had a pathetic 190hp engine.
    Whatever, you get the point though, it lost horsepower over time due to various factors.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by P4g4nite View Post
    What was the quality of fuel like in the 60's in the US? Because a lot of these engines ran really high compression ratios am I right?
    You are right. In the late '60s, 98 and 100 octane was available at the pump. Now, the highest at the pump (where I live) is only 91 octane. Although, there are gas pumps near airports which have 111 octane (for $8.25/gallon).
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by fleet
    You are right. In the late '60s, 98 and 100 octane was available at the pump.
    It's a perfect recipe for big power. Big displacement, racing competition plus it's associated homologation and excellent fuel available to the public.
    Good times.
    Although, there are gas pumps near airports which have 111 octane (for $8.25/gallon).
    you know how much it costs?
    Horsepower wins races. Torque pulls trailers.

    http://www.nuerburgring.de/fileadmin/webcam/webcam.jpg <Live cast from the 'Ring.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by P4g4nite View Post
    you know how much it costs?
    ironicaly, around the same as regular petrol in the UK
    autozine.org

  12. #42
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    =P4g4nite;731748]It's a perfect recipe for big power. Big displacement, racing competition plus it's associated homologation and excellent fuel available to the public.
    Good times.
    Yes, it was nice when you could buy real fuel at the corner gas station. BTW, I remember a gas station in 1979 in the city of San Fernando in which premium fuel was still labeled as "Ethel."


    you know how much it costs?
    One of the muscle car guys I know buys it. He mixes 111 octane with 91 octane. For anyone living in the valley, the station is on Oxnard St. and Hazeltine Ave. in the city of Van Nuys.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Canuck View Post
    Whatever, you get the point though, it lost horsepower over time due to various factors.
    It doesn't really help because it was recently rebuilt and it was about to blow.
    I'm dropping out to create a company that starts with motorcycles, then cars, and forty years later signs a legendary Brazilian driver who has a public and expensive feud with his French teammate.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    One of the muscle car guys I know buys it. He mixes 111 octane with 91 octane. For anyone living in the valley, the station is on Oxnard St. and Hazeltine Ave. in the city of Van Nuys.
    A buddy of mine has to run half racing fuel half premium in his chevelle so it won't spark knock. If he runs straight pump gas, it will spark knock like crazy above 2500rpm.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnynumfiv View Post
    A buddy of mine has to run half racing fuel half premium in his chevelle so it won't spark knock. If he runs straight pump gas, it will spark knock like crazy above 2500rpm.
    crap combustion chamber design will do that...

    and is that carbon fiber on the turbocharger housing? (talking about the Uber 4 TCed BMW F1 engine)
    Last edited by hightower99; 07-16-2007 at 06:38 AM.
    Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
    Engine torque is an illusion.

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