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Thread: M. Schumacher the best ever??

  1. #31
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    Kipling I put "@"because my keyboard wouldn't write A..yet back to the argument cars ,ight have been slippier yet they are too completely different times,well as I said senna 2nd.its like in football one running back has a better rushing average yet less yards than another running back.its the same here look @ the time it took for either one to get to there records.
    The only thing Ayrton had michael on was qualifying.it took Schumi longer yet I believe Schumi is still the most dominant driver to be on the grid

  2. #32
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    By the way the "restrictors" or whatever performance detriminating devices are on the cars kept them under 1000.I wish the regulations were 4.0 v12 naturally aspirated or 1.5 forced induction

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by :Exige:
    Nope. It's just easier to win nowadays. Look at Senna ... he could drive. Put Schumacher in one of the old racing cars and then watch him wet himself. I imagine it to go something like this: "Z0mg! Whai isernt teh carz driving itself lol wtf?!" and "Whar is mai safty gear N0eS!!11!".

    Michael Schumacher is only doing well because everyone on the grid are pussies. There's no real talent in F1 nowadays, just money-hungry ego-monsters (as opposed by the adreneline-monkey ego-monters of old)
    Total rubbish. I hope you were being ironic.

    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search

    The difference is that because the cars are on a much finer edge... as an example, there's so little mechanical grip now - if you do go sideways you lose grip totally thanks to the wings not travelling straight through the air, so you have to be much faster with corrections, whcih means you can't see the driving brilliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by the PORSCHEman2
    By the way the "restrictors" or whatever performance detriminating devices are on the cars kept them under 1000.
    No they didn't. Why write something like that? You obviously don't know for sure what kept the cars under 1000bhp, so why claim they run 'restrictors or whatever'? Displacement and longevity kept them under 1000bhp, which is still 300-400bhp more than when V10s became the norm. Do some research.

    Quote Originally Posted by the PORSCHEman2
    I wish the regulations were 4.0 v12 naturally aspirated or 1.5 forced induction
    Why?
    Last edited by MrKipling; 08-16-2006 at 10:18 AM.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKipling
    I hope you were being ironic.
    Satirical is a more fitting word

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by :Exige:
    Satirical is a more fitting word
    I must admit - given the quality of well, all your other posts on this site - that I was worried for a moment!
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  6. #36
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    Gawd! We’re all bored. This debate will rage endlessly, and of course I believe it’s my duty, to fuel the fire. When it comes to Michael, there are two moulds of people- Those who love him, and obviously those who love to hate him. You very rarely stumble upon a neutral mindset about Schumacher. So, without doubt I fall into one of those genres.

    The former, have calm seas ahead of them. It’s all too simple; Michael does most of the talking and all driving himself. Even, ardent fans, hardly deny the fact that Michael is no saint. And hell, we don’t want one. He’s ruthless, artful and awe-inspiring.

    The latter, however have an arduous job ahead of them. Nit-pickers, as I like to call them, scour through gigabytes/libraries of information to explain that yes, a long-long time ago there was someone better. Who? Quite frankly they can’t seem to put their finger on that one. But Mr. X was never bumptious; his mistakes were accepted as human shortcomings, was doubted by none and besotted by all. Boy was he urbane.

    Then, how exactly does one measure Michael’s greatness? He’s won with great cars; he’s survived ones unworthy of being nutcrackers. His victories span from the Senna-Prost era right up to 2006. Here’s a man that’s takes a victory in his first ‘full’ Formula One season beating Senna in the standings, wins a World Championship in his third and forth season. He moved over to Ferrari at a time when no world champion would have given them a second look, he finishes 3rd in the standings- miles ahead of his teammate, forges a team around him, and the rest is the raison d’etre of this thread.

    I hate to sound like an encyclopedia of useless information, but it becomes important in the attempt to understand the true extent of his brilliance. The 89 victories to his name are 3 short of what Senna and Prost achieved “collectively”. Fangio was brilliant to, but let’s not forget that he almost always turned up with the best car for a GP weekend. He even won his fourth World Championship in his team-mate’s car (if not mistaken). Leaving that aside; let us assume three Formula One seasons where Michael had the better car- 2002-2004. That accounts for exactly 51 (the same number of GP’s contested by Fangio). Apart, from his racing ability, Fangio was hailed for an unrivalled winning percentage of 47. Michael manages 59%. Now this is entirely ridiculous, but no less than comparing drivers from different eras.

    It’s hardly Michael’s fault that F1 has advanced by leaps and bounds, or that safety has increased, that death is no longer tolerated, that cornering is much faster and hence tailgating is nearly impossible, or that he can put in a lap of the Gods and turn the entire race on its head when he needs to, without wheel banging. If he deems necessary, he will bang wheels, but then again even Senna and Prost found that to be an ingenious solution. Formula One at that point was next to illiterate- the ‘disrepute’ we keep accusing Michael of was not a part of their dictionary. So Michael (hardly innocent) gets caught in hypocritical rule making and a career spanning two very different eras. And by no stretch of anyone’s imagination is Formula One a gentlemen’s sport. Dandies have golf and a bunch of things they do with/to horses.

    Impressive statistics don’t make a great driver, but a great driver sure as hell will make impressive statistics. Records aren’t everything (especially for the latter), but to ignore them- that’s puerility. At least they eliminate favouritism from the equation.

    Michael has beaten, smashed and then thrashed his rivals. To describe them as incompetent would be churlish. Every step of Michael’s acumen and errata are laid before us (Man! We even have throttle/brake/steering response statistics), even his antics reserve a special space in our craniums.

    James May puts it brilliantly, ‘Time has a fantastic knack of reassessing it all later on, throwing away the bits that were no good, and preserving the stuff that deserved to endure.’

    So maybe, 20 or 30 years from now, someone may fail to recollect that Michael swatted a fly, or blocked a corner, or blistered a tyre. As far as I’m concerned, (if a superlative is what it comes down to) he’s the bloody best.
    Last edited by Nazmacher; 08-16-2006 at 03:28 PM.

  7. #37
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    I said those displacements because I want it to b like the 80s with 1200hp f1s...lol

  8. #38
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    Nazmacher, you a beautiful man! A rookie poster who REALLY knows what he's on about - welcome to UCP, again.

    But....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazmacher
    Impressive statistics don’t make a great driver, but a great driver sure as hell will make impressive statistics. Records aren’t everything (especially for the latter), but to ignore them- that’s puerility. At least they eliminate favouritism from the equation.
    Although I do fundamentally agree with you on this one, a great driver doesn't always go away from the sport with an impressive record.... Perry McCarthy springs to mind in F1, Patrick Watts would be a really good example from BTCC. I don't think he ever won a race, but he was still a truly great driver.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NuclearCrap
    If Schumacher's that good then I wonder why Alonso is starting to whoop him.....
    Two reasons.
    1. Alonso had a car advantage last year.
    2. And much more important. Alonso is a future great - in fact already stands comparisons with many of the greats in F1. He's young and not quite at his peak. Schumacher is without doubt one of the all-time greats. However, he's older, near the end of his career and just below his peak now. Alonso nearing his peak and Schumacher just below his peak equals two drivers on pretty much even terms.
    I've said it a few times - this season will go down as one of the great seasons. The Schumacher/Alonso battle is the one we never got to witness between Schumacher and Senna. Enjoy it while it lasts.
    UCP's biggest Ford Sierra RS500 and BMW M3 E30 fan. My two favourite cars of all time.

  10. #40
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    It seems Jacques Villeneuve has been having his say on what Schumacher's legacy will be, in one last parting jibe before he leaves the sport...

    Quote Originally Posted by F1Racing.net
    Jacques Villeneuve believes Schumacher has been lying to his fans and fellow drivers. The 1997 F1 World Champion said in an interview to be published next week in F1 Racing magazine that Schumacher will be easily forgotten, as he hasn't got a true personality.

    "I think the problem is that you don't ever see his true personality," he said. "He's a racer - but a pure racer, nothing but a racer and, because of that, I think the day he hangs up his helmet people will just forget him. Senna, by contrast, will never be forgotten. Some of that is the James Dean factor, of course, because he was killed in action at a young age, but not all of it. I don't even think Michael will live on in people's memories as strong or as long as Prost has - certainly not as strong or as long as Mansell has. Those people attained a hero status that Michael never has and never will."

    Villeneuve believes Schumacher showed his true character during qualifying in Monaco earlier this season when he blocked the track at the end of the qualifying session preventing Alonso and Raikkonen to improve their qualifying lap times. "Michael simply isn't a great champion because he's played too many dirty tricks and because he isn't a great human being," said Villeneuve. "Yes, Senna played dirty tricks too but he did it with more class, more integrity. When he took Prost out at Suzuka in 1990, he said he was going to do it before the race."

    "So, unlike Michael, who ridiculously insisted he was innocent at Monaco this year, Senna said, 'Yes, I did it. But I told you before the race that I was going to do it.' That's very different from what Michael did at Monaco and Jerez and Adelaide. Senna wasn't lying to the fans. Michael was. And the sad thing is that, of course, the fans accept it - they swear black is white, in fact - just so that they can go on respecting the sport they love. And Michael takes advantage of that loyalty."
    Although I think JV goes a bit OTT with his remarks, I do think he has a valid point about how Schumacher will be remembered. The general feeling amongst F1 competitors and the neutral fans of the sport seems to be a begrudging respect for his abilities. Nobody denies that he is a great driver, but it doesn't really give people much pleasure in having to admit it. Outside of Germany and the ranks of Tifosi there is little or no affection for Schumi, either as a driver or as a person. Whether they supported their teams that they raced for or not, nearly everyone remembers the likes of Mansell and Senna with fondness because they were great characters as well as great competitors. Whether intentional or not, they made it easy for people to let them into their hearts and treat them as their heroes. I don't think the same will ever be said about Schumacher.
    uәʞoɹq spɹɐoqʎәʞ ʎɯ

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKipling
    Nazmacher, you a beautiful man! A rookie poster who REALLY knows what he's on about - welcome to UCP, again.

    But....



    Although I do fundamentally agree with you on this one, a great driver doesn't always go away from the sport with an impressive record.... Perry McCarthy springs to mind in F1, Patrick Watts would be a really good example from BTCC. I don't think he ever won a race, but he was still a truly great driver.

    Thanx mate!
    Sure, there are many occasions when great talent has been cocooned by callous cirsumstances, when it's nigh on impossible to slavage anything. At that point, its unfair to judge them based on records. Perry McCarthy was probably one such victim. Well, that's the hand he was dealt. But at the same time, one can't deny someone that has the trumps.
    Last edited by Nazmacher; 08-17-2006 at 07:27 AM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazmacher
    But at the same time, one can't deny someone that has the trumps.
    No this is true, you can argue for a driver with no record much more easily than you can argue against someone who has a stunning scrap book.

    I must confess I have never given the Schumi legacy much thought.... I must admit that, to a certain extent, I agree with Vile-nerve.
    Last edited by MrKipling; 08-17-2006 at 12:07 PM.
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  13. #43
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    I'm really looking forward to having Kimi and MS on the same equipment next year because whoever gets creamed, I will be happy!

    Said it before, say it again Senna was and still is the king.
    Zag when they Zig

  14. #44
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    If kimi does join the Scuderia he will be a number two and perform like a number two.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by the PORSCHEman2
    If kimi does join the Scuderia he will be a number two and perform like a number two.
    Oh do we smel a bit of schumi/ferrarizz fan boy herz???
    Why, o why is your nick "the PORSCHEman" when you are italian in you heart??
    Be true to your feelings man

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