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Old 05-25-2010, 04:14 PM
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Too much cash for too little car?

Does anyone else think that Subarus and Mitsubishis are now both very overpriced in relation to what they really are? In the past, Impezas and Evos were known for being as fast across country as a BMW M3 for example, yet any decent man would fork out another 15k for the Beemer. The quickest Evos and Imprezas are now faster from 0-60 than an M3 or Audi RS4 however the actual levels of equipment and broad desirability of the Japanese cars are much lower. They are also far less refined, less good all rounders and feel cheap and nasty. However the reality is that they aren't so cheap anymore! A mitsubishi Evo X costs anything from 32 - 50k now and the new Subaru Cosworth is also 50k. The only area where the Japanese rally replicas are still strong is in ultimate pace. In just about every other area, an M3 or RS4 is far better in terms of image, style, comfort and speed.

I just can't help feeling that the era of Imprezas and Evos is over and has been for some time. The traditional role that these cars played 10-15 years ago has now been filled by the modern 'mega hatchbacks' like the Ford Focus RS, Renault Megane Sport 250, VW Golf R, Seat Leon Cupra R and so on. The Hatchbacks seem to offer everything that the Sports saloons of the 90s did except with lower running costs and more appeal. Not to mention the fact that all of the above can be picked up for under 30k (just). Furthermore many of the above easily beat Impreza and Evo on practicality, equipment, fuel consumption, refinement and general running costs. The truth is that many of the Hatches, in particular the Golf, are NICE cars to have and own whereas Imprezas and Evos could never be called NICE, could they? Evos in particular have always had an image problem with those huge wings etc. not to mention the fact that you are far more likely to receive 'unwanted attention' from the boys in blue.

I think the best way to sum up the argument is that the void where Japanese saloons used to rule (the sub luxury coupe class) has now passed. The traditional values have been taken by modern Hot Hatches but at the same time, they still are not a patch on 'real' cars like Audis, Mercs and BMWs. The time when WRC sold cars in dealerships is long gone. Subaru and Mitsubishi need to learn that times have moved on from Colin McRae and Tommi Makkinen.

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Old 05-25-2010, 04:29 PM
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Where there's demand, there's supply. They wouldn't be making them if they weren't selling them. I don't want one, but obviously there's people that still do. Also, about 50% of the field at superlaps last weekend was Evos so they obviously still have a place somewhere. Also, Subaru and Mitsu aren't in the WRC, so they obviously have learnt that WRC is not selling their cars.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:08 PM
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Can't say I agree it's the end for them. a reduced market for sure ... but that's true for all "performance" cars these days
A Scooby or Evo is in a different class to all the current range of hot hatches ... mainly being AWD, lots of trick electronics and seriously top notch traction.
The only problem I see in the current SUbaru sales is it's pot ugly
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:01 PM
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The Evo and STi are replica's of their rally counterparts as you said earlier. However, you have to think of the word 'replica' in order to really comprehend what these two cars offer. To some they may be awful in every sense but they seem to mimic the pure authenticity of the average rally car. People buy them becuase they want cheap speed (I think their cheap vehicles for good quality) and not to mention look good. But in regards with 'hot hatches', they are more of a versitile, sporty vehicle that offers the same quality and fuel economy. If you did some research on the STi, Evo and the Hot Hatches, you'd be surprised about your findings. Try Consumer Reports.
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:11 PM
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Actually, I think they're right on in terms of bang for the buck. And if you can't afford a STI, you can go for a WRX, performance doesn't take a very big hit.

My worst bang for the buck ratio car in my opinion is the Smart car. Terrible for anything else than going around in a city- at which point you might as well be using mass transit.
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:31 PM
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But mass transit is boring/inconvenient, the Smart is designed purely for getting around a city so performance doesn't really matter and it's (supposed to be) fashionable. Totally different arguement.
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
The only problem I see in the current SUbaru sales is it's pot ugly
and fat.
cars for the playstation generation mostly, don't see that many people getting proper use out of them
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:07 PM
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The point for those cars was, and it still is, rallying. They may not be used by the works teams anymore in the top class, but they still make for excellent Group N machines. And as long as people want to take them rallying they'll continue to be made. Then as far as the road cars are concerned, ultimate pace is also an argument, altough a secindary one in my opinion.

As far as I'm concerned I don't want them, but I don't think they are bad or pointless. Just very focused.
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:59 PM
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I actually think the thread title is far more appropriate in relation to the German cars you are mentioning.
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Old 05-26-2010, 12:19 AM
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In answer to the high price tags of the cars, I'd say its the names they've established for themselves. Back in the day, that reputation was still in the building process, so they had no solid foundation on which to base a heftier sticker price on. As soon as something gets popular, demand increases, subsequently causing the price to go with it. Just blame Fast and the Furious.
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Old 05-26-2010, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
Terrible for anything else than going around in a city- at which point you might as well be using mass transit.
Unless it's a Brabus and used in anger ?

EDIT: Jeez that looks slow in the video We were quicker on some of those sections than the RX-8 coudl achieve
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Last edited by Matra et Alpine; 05-26-2010 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 05-26-2010, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
I actually think the thread title is far more appropriate in relation to the German cars you are mentioning.
Why ?
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Old 05-26-2010, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pimento View Post
But mass transit is boring/inconvenient, the Smart is designed purely for getting around a city so performance doesn't really matter and it's (supposed to be) fashionable. Totally different arguement.
For about the base price (I'm estimating a lot here) of a Smart, I could get a Honda Fit/Jazz which doesn't lose that much MPG to the Smart and still is way more practical. Granted it's a dirt base model, but so is the Smart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
Unless it's a Brabus and used in anger ?


EDIT: Jeez that looks slow in the video We were quicker on some of those sections than the RX-8 coudl achieve
That does look slow, the video being washed out and not having audio doesn't help either.

But I get your point- the Brabus coupe's are the cool ones. Not the Smarts.

At the NY Auto Show there was a Brabus Smart. They're not allowed to modify the engine, it was purely an appearance package with the LEDs and all. So craptastic.
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Old 05-26-2010, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
For about the base price (I'm estimating a lot here) of a Smart, I could get a Honda Fit/Jazz which doesn't lose that much MPG to the Smart and still is way more practical. Granted it's a dirt base model, but so is the Smart.
The Smart was already an overpriced toy, and then the iQ was introduced.
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Old 05-26-2010, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
For about the base price (I'm estimating a lot here) of a Smart, I could get a Honda Fit/Jazz which doesn't lose that much MPG to the Smart and still is way more practical. Granted it's a dirt base model, but so is the Smart.
Yea, but the Jazz isn't 'fashionable'.
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