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  #31  
Old 05-27-2010, 02:39 PM
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I somehow doubt that a Ford Focus in any guise excepting the RS would offer anywhere near the same driving dynamics as a BMW 1 Series.

Then again, maybe I am wrong/idiotic.

Ferrer is looking for driving pleasure, henk you are looking for other things more I think - features, comfort, usability. Ferrer isn't like that, and that's where he is coming from.

In Europe, it seems like comparing apples to oranges (the German 3 are RWD/AWD whereas the competition is FWD), but here in North America (Canada specifically) when you compare two sport coupes - the two most obvious contenders being the G37 Coupe (46.3k) and 335i Coupe (53.4k) (and yes I know Infiniti is in Europe but no one buys them), then the value of the BMW can certainly be called into question. The 335i is a great car, but I highly doubt it's 7k more of a car than the G, and I also doubt that it comes equipped with as many standard features of the G. A bit different from those two, but the TL SH-AWD which is a delight on the inside starts at only 45k in Canada. Here in North America, we have an abundance of cheap (sporty to various degrees) luxury cars.

The competition is intense, but BMW can charge a premium because they have the little blue and white roundel on the hood and that buys you a lot of status here if you are a young-middle-management-suburban yuppie.
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  #32  
Old 05-27-2010, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
The Smart was already an overpriced toy, and then the iQ was introduced.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pimento View Post
Yea, but the Jazz isn't 'fashionable'.
Depends on who you talk to. To me, a Jazz will always be more fashionable than a Smart, because if you had bought the Jazz, that already demonstrated that you have smarts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by group c n b man View Post
Ferrer is right though. Who would seriously turn down a RS4, M3 or C63 AMG for an Evo X or Subaru STI ? Only a die hard rally fan. Yes the japanese cars can provide thrills but only when pushing hard and as you know, that isn't something you can do often on the public roads.
The RS4 and the other German cars you just mentioned are nearly twice the price of the Japanese equivalents. Quite different, but they're all about the same in terms of performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
I somehow doubt that a Ford Focus in any guise excepting the RS would offer anywhere near the same driving dynamics as a BMW 1 Series.

Then again, maybe I am wrong/idiotic.

Ferrer is looking for driving pleasure, henk you are looking for other things more I think - features, comfort, usability. Ferrer isn't like that, and that's where he is coming from.

In Europe, it seems like comparing apples to oranges (the German 3 are RWD/AWD whereas the competition is FWD), but here in North America (Canada specifically) when you compare two sport coupes - the two most obvious contenders being the G37 Coupe (46.3k) and 335i Coupe (53.4k) (and yes I know Infiniti is in Europe but no one buys them), then the value of the BMW can certainly be called into question. The 335i is a great car, but I highly doubt it's 7k more of a car than the G, and I also doubt that it comes equipped with as many standard features of the G. A bit different from those two, but the TL SH-AWD which is a delight on the inside starts at only 45k in Canada. Here in North America, we have an abundance of cheap (sporty to various degrees) luxury cars.

The competition is intense, but BMW can charge a premium because they have the little blue and white roundel on the hood and that buys you a lot of status here if you are a young-middle-management-suburban yuppie.
The Honda 1300 was supposed to have really good driving dynamics. That's a FWD car too.

The Infiniti G37 sells amazingly here because of the argument you put up- the BMW may be a great RWD sedan, but for those who don't care for the badge, the Infiniti is nearly just as great a car.
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  #33  
Old 05-27-2010, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
For about the base price (I'm estimating a lot here) of a Smart, I could get a Honda Fit/Jazz which doesn't lose that much MPG to the Smart and still is way more practical.
this is what's known as a 'lose-lose' situation
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  #34  
Old 05-27-2010, 08:01 PM
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Consumer Reports also recommends the Boxster/Cayman. If you want a small car with a decent amount of performance, let alone a reasonable price tag (I guess?) those are good cars too. Their also reliable. Or a Corvette which has pretty good performance but gas mileage of a full-size pickup.
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  #35  
Old 05-27-2010, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cargirl1990 View Post
Consumer Reports also recommends the Boxster/Cayman. If you want a small car with a decent amount of performance, let alone a reasonable price tag (I guess?) those are good cars too. Their also reliable. Or a Corvette which has pretty good performance but gas mileage of a full-size pickup.
lol what, boxsters used to be slower than S15's back in the day.
corvettes get close to 30mpg i thought with the long gearing
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  #36  
Old 05-27-2010, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
lol what, boxsters used to be slower than S15's back in the day.
corvettes get close to 30mpg i thought with the long gearing
You have to buy an updated version of Consumer Reports.
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  #37  
Old 05-27-2010, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
lol what, boxsters used to be slower than S15's back in the day.
corvettes get close to 30mpg i thought with the long gearing
They do. Car and Driver made a "fun vs mpg" comparison and the Corvette was among the tops, along with the Elise.

Cargirl, I stopped caring what consumer reports said about cars when they said an Audi A4 handles better than a Lotus Elise. This recent thing about unsafe suvs has only cemented my opinion that they want all cars to handle like lincons with manic stability/traction controls added.
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  #38  
Old 05-27-2010, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwgkd View Post
They do. Car and Driver made a "fun vs mpg" comparison and the Corvette was among the tops, along with the Elise.

Cargirl, I stopped caring what consumer reports said about cars when they said an Audi A4 handles better than a Lotus Elise. This recent thing about unsafe suvs has only cemented my opinion that they want all cars to handle like lincons with manic stability/traction controls added.
LOLwut.
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  #39  
Old 05-27-2010, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cargirl1990 View Post
You have to buy an updated version of Consumer Reports.
i don't buy consumer reports on the basis that most consumers are morons, lol.
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  #40  
Old 05-27-2010, 08:27 PM
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Paying 50K for an STI will net you big grins and you will scare things twice the price.

Something which most hot hatches will fail to do.
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  #41  
Old 05-27-2010, 11:34 PM
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Kitdy, there is still a difference between "our" Focus and the one you get. Ours is considered to have very pleasant driving characteristics. (note that I did not even bring forward a French example as not to look biased) And driving pleasure is not dependent on horse power. But the Focus is a decent four seater, while the 1-series is a decent 2+2, which then should actually be compared in terms of driving pleasure with a MX5 or something like that.
I just found out that we now have the 116d available, where the 2-litre engines pumps out a hefty 115 bhp and which is 4000 Euros cheaper (26 vs 30k) than the 118d (green subsidies and an even more basic standard equipment, lacking for instance air conditioning). That brings the car in Golf territory price wise, but that car than has the 140 BHP TDI.
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  #42  
Old 05-27-2010, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
I'm not dismissing it because it has front wheel drive, I wouldn't turn down a car because it has front wheel drive. But, yes, all things considered I think that multitasking is better for driving. And if a Focus costs the same as 1er, you are even contributing to my argument. I don't care about the gizmos or the standard kit, as a driver an entry level BMW is difficult to beat, if possible at all.

Maybe you should drive one.
somewhere, knowing you, I think the word NOT is missing in your post, for you to find out where.....
I have been a passenger in one that we had as a rental. OK on smooth roads, but....
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  #43  
Old 05-28-2010, 12:03 AM
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Consumer Reports don't seem to me to be car enthusiasts. So while they may have no ads, and thus no (or less) corruption when it comes to reviews and comparisons, the shit they say may not have any validity for an enthusiast.

I just went to their website and they have on their main page a refrigerator review or some such thing. So they it may be a bit of a stretch, but it's certainly possible that they literally may view/treat cars as appliances.
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  #44  
Old 05-28-2010, 06:46 AM
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I don't think that the 1er is uncomfortable at all. There are other cars that may ride better, or that have softer suspensions, but for instance the Lancia's poor body control actually detracts from the comfort in my opinion. This is a problem you don't get with the BMW. Furthermore it's fast, frugal and well built. Yes, you pay more, but you get more in my opinion too.

This doesn't mean that I think cheaper cars are useless. They are just there if you can't access the more expensive ones, or if you aren't interested in what the best cars can offer and you just want something to go from A to B.
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  #45  
Old 05-28-2010, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
My car cost 25 grand. What other four seater that costs 25 grand drives as well as it?
Until they stopped selling it an RX-8 pissed all over it for a lot less
Seriously, coudl list dozens But I doubt it woudl be of any use !!
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