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Thread: Jay Leno's Take on the 426 Street Hemi

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    Very Good/Excellent are subjective criteria, often based on expectation, and I will not accept the existence of a Ferrari 250GTB-4.
    Come on... stop with the excuses. I also posted actual figures, so just accept it.
    Some cars can stop faster than a Ferrari whether you like it or not.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    I just wanted to see what would win in a drag race.
    Oh, a typical '60s muscle car will win a drag race with a typical '60s Ferrari. The muscle cars have all that low-end torque which really helps them get off the line (if they have good traction, that is).
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    Come on... stop with the excuses. I also posted actual figures, so just accept it.
    Some cars can stop faster than a Ferrari whether you like it or not.
    here we go again, were the figures obtained under the same circumstances? You did not post actual figures, you produced scattered test results...
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    here we go again, were the figures obtained under the same circumstances? You did not post actual figures, you produced scattered test results...
    Look, if you want to believe that no American car can brake from 80-0 mph in a shorter distance than a Ferrari, go right ahead. Others here have no problem with that.

    And I did post actual figures... the 80-0 mph from Car & Driver for the Ferrari 250/GTB-4 and the muscle cars.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    And I did post actual figures... the 80-0 mph from Car & Driver for the Ferrari 250/GTB-4 and the muscle cars.
    Actual figures of a Ferrari 250 GTB-4? Miraculous....
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    Actual figures of a Ferrari 250 GTB-4? Miraculous....
    It was a Ferrari specially produced to make muslce cars look very good...
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    simple, a dragster....
    Why couldn't a Ferrari hold a candle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    You'd want to try a Miura then...
    Faster than a S/S Hemi Dart or 'Cuda which did the 1/4 mile in 10.6 (on slicks I presume)? Faster than a ZL1 Corvette which did the 1.4 mile in 10.9 (slicks definitely this time)? Faster than a ZL1 Camaro?

    Could a Miura keep up with a ZL1 Corvette even in the twisties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    Oh, a typical '60s muscle car will win a drag race with a typical '60s Ferrari. The muscle cars have all that low-end torque which really helps them get off the line (if they have good traction, that is).
    This claim lacks any objective evidence. Let's look at a few figures.

    UCP's own site lists the 275 GTS as having 260 hp and 217 lb.-ft. of torque, weighing 1,100 odd kilos or about 2,400 lbs. Performance form 0-60 mph is listed at 6.7 seconds.

    As for your average muscle car, you gotta take one with one of the lower spec engines as they sold more, so let's for shits and giggles choose a Chevelle with a 327 or 350 - I think that is representative of an average muscle car. Fleet - you will probably have horsepower figures for these cars as I have no idea. The Chevelle according to Wiki weighed about 1,600 kilos so 3,500 lbs. Do you have any performance figures for a 327 or 350 Chevelle?

    Let's look at this rationally folks.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    Why couldn't a Ferrari hold a candle?
    because they were not designed for drag racing. You may also want to look at the top speed many models were able to achieve, much higher than any muscle car.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    Why couldn't a Ferrari hold a candle?
    Because the muscle cars had a lot more torque.

    This claim lacks any objective evidence. Let's look at a few figures.

    UCP's own site lists the 275 GTS as having 260 hp and 217 lb.-ft. of torque, weighing 1,100 odd kilos or about 2,400 lbs. Performance form 0-60 mph is listed at 6.7 seconds.

    As for your average muscle car, you gotta take one with one of the lower spec engines as they sold more, so let's for shits and giggles choose a Chevelle with a 327 or 350 - I think that is representative of an average muscle car. Fleet - you will probably have horsepower figures for these cars as I have no idea. The Chevelle according to Wiki weighed about 1,600 kilos so 3,500 lbs. Do you have any performance figures for a 327 or 350 Chevelle?

    Let's look at this rationally folks.
    A 327 or 350 Chevelle is not a muscle car. A 396, 427 or 454 Chevelle is. The hp ratings for the 396 were 325, 350 and 375; for the 427 it was 425 and for the 454 it was 360, 390 425 and 450, depending on the year and the series. Weight was 3,600-3,900 lbs.

    But take a 340 Dart. With 3.23 gears it can run 0-60 mph in the same time as the Ferrari you mentioned. With 3.55 gears, it can run 0-60 mph in 6.0 seconds (that is what Motor Trend, April, 1968, got with a '68 Dart GTS 340). 1/4 mile times were mid-to-high 14s with 3.23s and low-to-mid 14s with 3.55s or 3.91s.

    But perhaps it would be better to say... the average of the faster '60s muscle cars (not including the ultra-fast ones) could run a faster 1/4 mile than the average '60s Ferrari.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    Faster than a S/S Hemi Dart or 'Cuda which did the 1/4 mile in 10.6 (on slicks I presume)? Faster than a ZL1 Corvette which did the 1.4 mile in 10.9 (slicks definitely this time)? Faster than a ZL1 Camaro?

    Could a Miura keep up with a ZL1 Corvette even in the twisties?
    I don't have the 1/4 mile times, but an SV could do 0-100km/h (0-62mph) in 4"5 seconds.

    And the problem of the Miura didn't reside with the handling but rather with the high speed lift.

    And by the way ZL1? Isn't that tremendously rare? We might as well include the Miura Jota, then.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    because they were not designed for drag racing. You may also want to look at the top speed many models were able to achieve, much higher than any muscle car.
    And the muscle cars were not designed for top speed (except for the Dodge Charger Daytona and Plymouth Superbird).
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    And the muscle cars were not designed for top speed (except for the Dodge Charger Daytona and Plymouth Superbird).
    so the comparison was useless, as I already indicated in my first reaction.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    so the comparison was useless, as I already indicated in my first reaction.
    It may be, but Kitdy asked the question in the first place.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    because they were not designed for drag racing. You may also want to look at the top speed many models were able to achieve, much higher than any muscle car.
    That being said, the were much lighter in comparison and had reasonable power for their mass, so I would not be surprised were they to have comparable performance numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    Because the muscle cars had a lot more torque.


    A 327 or 350 Chevelle is not a muscle car. A 396, 427 or 454 Chevelle is. The hp ratings for the 396 were 325, 350 and 375; for the 427 it was 425 and for the 454 it was 360, 390 425 and 450, depending on the year and the series. Weight was 3,600-3,900 lbs.

    But take a 340 Dart. With 3.23 gears it can run 0-60 mph in the same time as the Ferrari you mentioned. With 3.55 gears, it can run 0-60 mph in 6.0 seconds (that is what Motor Trend, April, 1968, got with a '68 Dart GTS 340). 1/4 mile times were mid-to-high 14s with 3.23s and low-to-mid 14s with 3.55s or 3.91s.

    But perhaps it would be better to say... the average of the faster '60s muscle cars (not including the ultra-fast ones) could run a faster 1/4 mile than the average '60s Ferrari.
    I think a 327 or 350 Chevelle is still a muscle car. Just one with a smaller engine.

    Furthermore, I would like to see what a car magazine got as 0-60 mph for the 275 to compare it with UCP's database.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    I don't have the 1/4 mile times, but an SV could do 0-100km/h (0-62mph) in 4"5 seconds.

    And the problem of the Miura didn't reside with the handling but rather with the high speed lift.

    And by the way ZL1? Isn't that tremendously rare? We might as well include the Miura Jota, then.
    4.5 seconds is astonishing. I included ZL1 Camaros and Corvettes as they were rare (as were Miuras) and still probably cheaper.

    I have no problem including the Jota either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    And the muscle cars were not designed for top speed (except for the Dodge Charger Daytona and Plymouth Superbird).
    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    so the comparison was useless, as I already indicated in my first reaction.
    I don't think it's useless. All cars have performance statistics and can be compared on certain criteria even if they are vastly different machines and go about performing very dissimilarly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    It may be, but Kitdy asked the question in the first place.
    I just wanted to know what is faster in a straight line. So far it seems as though it depends on the car.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    That being said, the were much lighter in comparison and had reasonable power for their mass, so I would not be surprised were they to have comparable performance numbers.
    They certainly were lighter. The Ferrari in the first test I posted weighed only 2,663 lbs and the engine was rated at 300 hp (though torque was somewhat low at 202 lbs-ft). The 3.55:1 axle ratio helped as did the low 3.08:1 1st gear.


    I think a 327 or 350 Chevelle is still a muscle car. Just one with a smaller engine.
    Most muscle car historians and enthusiasts agree that a muscle car runs the 1/4 mile in the low-15s or better at 90+ mph. Those 4-bbl 327 and 350 Chevelles were more like 16-second cars. I have a test somewhere of a '68 Chevelle with a 327-4 bbl and its 1/4 mile time was something like 16.4 seconds. Certainly better than the average family sedan, but not quite a muscle car.

    4.5 seconds is astonishing. I included ZL1 Camaros and Corvettes as they were rare (as were Miuras) and still probably cheaper.
    The Yenko 427 Novas did even better. They were said to do 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds. Same thing with the '68 Hemi-Dart and Barracudas.

    I don't think it's useless. All cars have performance statistics and can be compared on certain criteria even if they are vastly different machines and go about performing very dissimilarly.
    It is not useless. Henk just gets sore when an American car is faster in the 1/4 mile than a Ferrari.

    I just wanted to know what is faster in a straight line. So far it seems as though it depends on the car.
    Yes, it does depend on the car. You can go through tests and come up with a rough average, but times will vary from model to model.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

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