Audi R8 GT

[Ferrer]

if it doesn't have an S or an R in the name they tend to be pretty shit,imo. they're like the camry of the upper class, A to B only.
cars like this R8 are pretty spectacular though, and it's always nice just to see them on the roads, which you will, because they're so much easier than the equivalent lambo to drive everyday.

I'd like to test drive an R8. For the first time ever probably, it's the cheaper version of something and it seems like they did a good job with it. I'm personally willing to give it the benefit of doubt. And I liked the A2, again unlikely for an Audi it was clever car with no equivalent option in another VAG brand. A shame it sold so poorly.

However, I fail to see the point of the others. The tranverse engined cars are available cheaper in other VAG divisions, and the longitudinal engine cars fail to excite in any way. Besides, this isn't the only problem. Their customers are like those of a Ferrari, only without the brilliant car.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Audi's job is to be the aspirational VW. There isn't anything particularly wrong with that.

I see them more as a Mercedes Benz Competitor in comparison to perhaps BMW. But to be honest, most German luxury manufacturers are muddying their core brand strategies.

Audi's are certainly a more cerebral choice than a heart choice, but they're no worse than a Lexus or Infiniti.

[Ferrer]

But you see, Mercedes-Benz gives you unique engineering and the correct layout and I'm sure the cars ride better. And their costumers are somewhat nicer than Audi's (and BMW's for that matter). Maybe pretending to be sporty turns you into an imbecile, I don't know.

As for the Japanese, I'm not terribly interested in Lexus either but at least their costumers don't think they have the be all end all of sports saloons (maybe because there aren't any in Europe, but that's another matter). Concerning Datsun I disagree, altough I do think it would be better if they sold them as the Skyline, and whatever the bigger one is called.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

How can you possibly say something like a Mercedes Benz Van is a correct Layout.

Or an A-Class, for that matter.

The comment about customers is kind of irrelevant - I know more Douchebags who drive BMW's than I do Audi's. Does that make any of the cars better or worse?

As for Lexus customers and Sport Saloons...May I present the ISF?

I think you're negative experience with Audi has more to do with the idiots you associate driving with them more than the actual cars themselves. The assertion that they have the "wrong layout" is moot because hundreds of vehicles share that layout - and some of them are even sporty.

Much of the appeal of an Audi is the sure footed handling matched with luxury - not the sportiest, not the most luxurious, but the best mix between.

Mercedes Benz are cars your father drives, BMW's are driven by those who take themselves (and their ability behind the wheel) too seriously, and are nowhere near practical enough at the lower ends, Lexus' are too alternative and somewhat lacking in luxury cache...

[DesmoRob]

But you see, Mercedes-Benz gives you unique engineering and the correct layout and I'm sure the cars ride better. And their costumers are somewhat nicer than Audi's (and BMW's for that matter). Maybe pretending to be sporty turns you into an imbecile, I don't know.

As far as I'm concerned, its somewhat futile generalizing entire brands by the people that we think drive them. Everyone seems to have a habit of doing it. I've been guilty of it myself, but its not really anything fundamental to base a statement on. If you ask me, I'd say that all upper-class car brands have their stuck-up, wierdo, snob etc followers. Dicks just like being seen in nice stuff. Its not any given brand itself that markets itself to those particular people. I've had two separate BMW dealerships turn down picture taking inside their stores, while a Ferrari sales associate let me sit in, start and rev an F430 Spider in theirs. Its a mixed bag of tricks out there.

[jediali]

Audi's are certainly a more cerebral choice than a heart choice, but they're no worse than a Lexus or Infiniti.

I was thinking about this very point the other day. I think its becoming more and more evident with their changing model line up.

But you see, Mercedes-Benz gives you unique engineering and the correct layout and I'm sure the cars ride better. And their costumers are somewhat nicer than Audi's (and BMW's for that matter). Maybe pretending to be sporty turns you into an imbecile, I don't know.

really? You are better than this Ferrer. Do you hate the cars technically or there clientel? I am getting confused.

Regarding badge values you should hate Porsche too (wrong layout too). Weirdly I find Porsche drivers rather pleasant locally and eager to show they are enthusuiasts not overpaid selfish road users.

As far as I'm concerned, its somewhat futile generalizing entire brands by the people that we think drive them.

I think cars are such a massive part of our lives. I think too many people see the car as an extension of themselves. On the basis that you could not generalise people by looking at them, I dont think you can look at a car and judge the driver. Sure there are some trends but to go to beyond humour with the stereotypes is perhaps dangerous. A line for example Jeremy Clarkson sometimes treads and more often than not overshoots by a mile.

While we are here, I personally think its a bit weak to be using a car as a reflection of yourself either deliberately or sub-conciously. I would admire more the character of a person who drove a beat up micra for example and did not really care but has an awesome life. Sorry, seems like a bit of a rant there, its not suppoesed to be. And you are allowed your opinions Ferrer, no problem there.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Because, you know, there haven't been thousands of iterations of the Gallardo like this...

I think it's an invalid comment to think the Gallardo is simply Audi testing future R8 development - it has it's own seperate character and indeed seperate clientele.

This is a beautiful example of the aspirational Audi that is attempting to push itself further upmarket by appealing to the bedroom wall crowd - and for the most part it works. but the cynicism surrounding Lamborghini's future is not founded. the Murclielago replacement will be special, and the Gallardo replacement even moreso.

This hatred of Audi is really, really tiresome.

Actually, what I'm sort of complaining about now is just how they are self-celebrating the R8, without giving much credit to the fact that without the Gallardo the R8 just wouldn't exist. Also, dropping exactly the same drivetrain in the R8 from the LP560 isn't something I was hoping for.

I may dislike Audi, and I have my reasons not only based on idiots who buy them over here. I dislike their interiors, and I don't like how they drive. More precisely, I think Audis (and VAGs in general) have too hard suspensions and seats. Based on limited experience, but experience nonetheless.

If this hatred of Audi is tiresome, a blind faith on future Lamborghinis is pointless.
I'll be more than happy if they will be awesome and all, and I will more than happy if Audi will manage to produce something I car really like and appreciate. I changed my mind on many brands, for better or for worse.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Actually, what I'm sort of complaining about now is just how they are self-celebrating the R8, without giving much credit to the fact that without the Gallardo the R8 just wouldn't exist. Also, dropping exactly the same drivetrain in the R8 from the LP560 isn't something I was hoping for.

This is a fair call - don't forget your roots.

Like How Audi owns Lamborghini and without their money there would be no Gallardo. Forgive me on this but I think that kind of gives the right to put it in an R8 bodyshell and sell it for cheaper

I may dislike Audi, and I have my reasons not only based on idiots who buy them over here. I dislike their interiors, and I don't like how they drive. More precisely, I think Audis (and VAGs in general) have too hard suspensions and seats. Based on limited experience, but experience nonetheless.

Interesting. In my limited experience with VAG I have found the interiors to be sombre but well made affairs with mild cases of berk sometimes, but for the most part exceptionally well designed. The suspension is a common fault (and it's not exclusive to VAG, paging runflats on a BMW...) and again, you're prejudging the car based upon your image of the driver.

If this hatred of Audi is tiresome, a blind faith on future Lamborghinis is pointless.
I'll be more than happy if they will be awesome and all, and I will more than happy if Audi will manage to produce something I car really like and appreciate. I changed my mind on many brands, for better or for worse.

Blind faith it is not - Audi are nothing if not master manipulators of image, and they know full well that Lamborghini's image is one that cannot possibly be given up - the badass of the motoring world who stuck two fingers up to Ferrari and paved their own path.

If anything the fact they have a secure financial future (instead of say, a russian billionaire) cements this future even moreso.

[Ferrer]

I meant layout as in mechanical layout, not the type of bodies.

In that aspect Audis (their main range at least) are doubly wrong. First they are front wheel drive, and second they have longitudinally mounted engines which (usually) are in front in the headlamps. What that means is that you get a million miles of understeer, which isn't surefooted, it's just boring.

Another problem is the numbness of the steering. It's far too light which doesn't give you much confidence at speed. Someone said to me that this was done in part to mitigate the understeer sensation. Well, in a car that can do 250km/h I prefer some understeer rather than give up confidence in my car.

And finally there's the read, at least in models with big wheels, which simply doesn't belong in a car which can be considered a luxury saloon. Our XF, with one inch bigger wheels, rides better than the old A6 (current generation pre-facelift model) we had.

I can only see three good thing with Audis, they are undeniably quality products. They have excellent interior (if a little dull). And they are quite handsome (stupid grille aside). However, they fail at driving dynamics and the ride isn't very good either.

As far as the driving is concerned, logitudinally engined Audis simply aren't a match for a car which has a front engined, rear wheel drive layout. And yet they seem to insist on that.

The A3's problem (and I guess the A1's and TT's to a point as well), is completely different. They aren't bad cars. They have a fine mechanical layout for front wheel drive cars, which makes them less nose heavy and understeer-prone than its larger siblings, but they feel completely dull and boring. Also, they can be had much cheaper as Seats or Skodas.

And then, there's the problem with the average costumer. It's not one or the other that drives me up the wall, it's the combination of both. If Audi made a proper car, I'd happily consider it, but it seems like they can't or their costumers aren't interested in them. There are other manufacturers with image problems, but they make great cars, and I drive one of these. So it's not like anyone can accuse me of being to overtly concerned about a manufacturer's image.

I'm sorry but Audi's are like the Starbucks of the car world. And I hate Starbucks.

[pimento]

costumer... costumers

I've had some very good friends who were costumers, and I'll have you know none of them ever had an Audi. They couldn't afford one for one thing..

I'm not an Audi fan in general, but I've never driven or sat in one, so I can't comment on the experience of them. I have a huge motorlust for the Ur-Quattro though, and respect everything to do with that beast and its rallying. As for the present day.. I'd test drive one if I was in the market for something like that, but I can't see myself buying one. But hey, maybe I'd be convinced..

Naww, I'd have the Jaaaaaaaaag.

[RacingManiac]

UrQuattro presents all that is wrong with the Audi layout to this day. A heavy lump(I-5, which is pretty long too) sitting entirely in front of the front axle. And its dominance in rallying was pretty much done as soon as someone else figured out how to do AWD in a more balanced mechanical layout(ie, Peugeot).

I am with Ferrer on the Audi design, though I still find their cars desirable. Though I think a majority of the reason is their marketing.

[LeonOfTheDead]

This is a fair call - don't forget your roots.

Like How Audi owns Lamborghini and without their money there would be no Gallardo. Forgive me on this but I think that kind of gives the right to put it in an R8 bodyshell and sell it for cheaper

I just don't like cloning things. I don't even like the fact an 8C is so technically similar to the GranTurismo, which is also why the 8C disappointed in the dynamics and weight departments.

Interesting. In my limited experience with VAG I have found the interiors to be sombre but well made affairs with mild cases of berk sometimes, but for the most part exceptionally well designed. The suspension is a common fault (and it's not exclusive to VAG, paging runflats on a BMW...) and again, you're prejudging the car based upon your image of the driver.

I remember the Passat 3B we used to have, and of course no runflats, but it still was very hard, and the steering wheel was as communicative as a rudder.
Surelly Audi's interior are well assembled, but I think the design is too flat, dark and squared. Maybe better than recent BMW's products with those small buttons and sharp edges about everywhere, but I'm always disappointed when looking or seating inside of an Audi.

Blind faith it is not - Audi are nothing if not master manipulators of image, and they know full well that Lamborghini's image is one that cannot possibly be given up - the badass of the motoring world who stuck two fingers up to Ferrari and paved their own path.

If anything the fact they have a secure financial future (instead of say, a russian billionaire) cements this future even moreso.

I'd still wait for those cars to come out. Money and technical resources don't equal right choices.

[Commodore GS/E]

I'm with Ferrer when it comes to Audi design. But i dislike Audis because of the situation here in Germany. Everybody who buys a used or new Audi does somehow think that he/ she just bought the best car of the world because it's an Audi. Many jerks drive them now, and that's highly annoying.
Apart from that, Audis have never been the peak of engineering. All their sucess was because of their quattro system. Before the Quattro came, Audis weren't even recognized by the masses. And even after the Quattro, they continued to build the most boring cars of all time. I mean, just look at the 90s Audis; they look worse than the Mercs and BMWs of their time. Since Audi became cool in the 00s, they haven't really changed their design philosophy. Single frame here, LEDs there...and the new model is ready. I would just wish they would recognize that the single frame design is growing a beard. A huge, long, white one. They simply over-stretched it.
And then, last but not least there is the engineer's point of view. The quattro awd isn't bad, but Audi has a long tradition in building nose-heavy cars. Simply look at the RS6: take away the awd, and it will absolutely die in the corners. The UrQuattro was no better. And then, there's the price. All Audis are awfully expensive, but they don't give you the sportyness of a BMW or the elegance and smoothness of a Merc. Instead, you simply get an in-your-face exterior and loads of dullness.
To sum up: i don't like Audis

[RacingManiac]

Recent years their powertrain is more interesting than the cars themselves. Engines like the 2.0T or the 4.2 RS4 V8 and such are good engines. Direct injection with forced induction is a recipe for a efficient engine. But again, the cars themselves are ok, if not more of a case of could be better if it was in a car in a different layout.....

[Ferrer]

The thing about the two litre engine is that it can be had in other non-Audi products, altough the high power V8 can't.

To further illustrate my point.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tRAOAfWw7I]YouTube - Audi S4 3.0T , Ignacio Pérez, Jarama, drifting[/ame]

All the engineering, all the clutch in front of the engine, all the trick four wheel drive system, and the most it can muster is the same lift-off oversteer as a much less complex conventional front wheel drive car.