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  #16  
Old 03-02-2011, 01:04 PM
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According to autoblog.com, the CF tub weight 146 kg (324 pounds), without any of the subframes, and I believe that's quite a lot. Now I don't know how much a 599 aluminum full frame weights, but this is twice the McLaren's weight.

Concerning the AWD weight, considering that Ferrari guy believes the FF could loose about 100 kg without the AWD and the DCT, I don't know if it could explain all the gap. Also, I remember tuner Edo Competition removed the AWD hardware from a Murciealgo, and saved 70 kg, if that's something worth being noticed.
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  #17  
Old 03-03-2011, 01:29 AM
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the RWD Ferrari Enzo weighs 1360 KG . it would be the aventador competitor if it was RWD & if the Murcilago only dropped 70 KG being converted to RWD - & assuming that this car will be similar - then it doesnt seem like the Aventador is all that lightweight

compounding this is the fact that its V12 is very light . its lighter than the 6.0 that BMW made for the Mclaren F1 & its lighter than the new design Enzo engine

weight on its own doesnt really mean much tho . this car could have absolutly fantastic handeling , or it could be a total dog of a 4 wheel drive

i doubt its going to be a dog , & although my preferance is for RWD & a normal manual gearbox , im betting this will be as big an improvement over the Murcielago as that car was over the Diablo
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  #18  
Old 03-03-2011, 04:18 AM
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This is why a Lamborghini is better than a McLaren.

Instead of talking about the way it feels, looks (Which, in the matte white, is gorgeous) or makes you feel, you're talking about numbers and weight. This sort of clinical coldness is what makes the McLaren so...unsexy, and the Lamborghini so.

Sofia Vergara isn't the skinniest woman, but she's sure as hell one of the sexiest. Likewise here.
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Old 03-03-2011, 05:31 AM
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Awesome. Lambo make the most horny looking supercars ever. It actually hurts not to be able to have one.
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  #20  
Old 03-03-2011, 05:49 AM
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I must agree with my compatriots. The weight doesn't matter that much (it's really not that heavy at all), but it seems like a great Lambo. I like it much more than the Murcie, especially the original.. vanilla Murcie was far too blobtacular. This looks angular and mean, like a good mid-engined Italian supercar should.
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  #21  
Old 03-03-2011, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsight View Post
the RWD Ferrari Enzo weighs 1360 KG . it would be the aventador competitor if it was RWD & if the Murcilago only dropped 70 KG being converted to RWD - & assuming that this car will be similar - then it doesnt seem like the Aventador is all that lightweight

compounding this is the fact that its V12 is very light . its lighter than the 6.0 that BMW made for the Mclaren F1 & its lighter than the new design Enzo engine

weight on its own doesnt really mean much tho . this car could have absolutly fantastic handeling , or it could be a total dog of a 4 wheel drive

i doubt its going to be a dog , & although my preferance is for RWD & a normal manual gearbox , im betting this will be as big an improvement over the Murcielago as that car was over the Diablo
That's a bit wrong, the Enzo's dry weight was 1.250 kg VS 1.575 kg for the Aventador. What you're quoting is the kerb weight (fluids plus half tank I think). So the actual difference is 225 kg.

Also weight always makes a difference. If this car is good at even 2 tons, it would be better at 1 ton, no doubt on that.

I really don't know where you got the weight of the "new" Enzo's engine though
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  #22  
Old 03-03-2011, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pimento View Post
I must agree with my compatriots. The weight doesn't matter that much (it's really not that heavy at all), but it seems like a great Lambo. I like it much more than the Murcie, especially the original.. vanilla Murcie was far too blobtacular. This looks angular and mean, like a good mid-engined Italian supercar should.
From the start to about 0:52.
The reason why Lamborghinis are great cars.
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  #23  
Old 03-03-2011, 02:03 PM
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I think Clarkson description was good for basically two cars, the Miura and the Countach. Except that later on he states the Gallardo feels like a huge Audi TT... so hilarious to hear that an Audi R8 after...
For as much as I love the Diablo, it was just the obvious evolution, which was fine, but I dare to say it wasn't much more dramatic than a Testarossa/512 TR/512 M, on the road. And I feel about the same about all the others except the SV670 which is indeed much more dramatic than just about anything for that price. Then again any other car with stupid decals and a huge weings would have been named for tackiest car of the year period. I don't really know what allows Lamborghini to get away with it... mmh, wait, probably because they are considered tacky, somehow in a good way.

Yes the LP700 is dramatic from the outside, but it's just another one in the line. The ReventÚn spoiled the party a little, if it was the Murcielago MK2 it would have been OK, but it wasn't, so I didn't get to enjoy a really mad looking car sort of mass produced, and they wasted a design theme which they are now relying on a bit too much.

It will surely be something I'll keep staring at the first time I'll see it, but seriously, it wouldn't have been pretentious to pretend something more. Another ReventÚn shall I say, just "mass" produced this time.
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  #24  
Old 03-03-2011, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead View Post
I think Clarkson description was good for basically two cars, the Miura and the Countach. Except that later on he states the Gallardo feels like a huge Audi TT... so hilarious to hear that an Audi R8 after...
It doesn't matter who says it, or what does he think of other Lambos, the point still stands.

Ever since Lamborghini launched the Miura back in the mid-60's, the public's perception of Lamborghini changed forever. They went from being the Germanest of the Italian supercar manufacturers to being the Italianest of the Modenese supercar manufacturers.

The Miura was a masterpiece... in leaving everyone astounded. The Countach was all 70's madness combined later on with 80's-style excess and in the restrained 90's, the Diablo's doors still opened upwards.

Certainly, the Murcielago was restrained. Thanks to Audi it felt a bit like Nissan Sunny, but it didn't matter because it still was massive, had a big great V12 behind the seats and featured more (dead) dianosaurs than the entire Jurassic Park franchise.

Perhaps today Lamborghini's core market, that of completely bonkers automobiles, is being attacked by Pagani, whose interiors feature more colors and bright spots than an LSD trip, but it doesn't matter because it seems that while most of the Murcielago's great features are still here, Lambo is slowly going back at being silly again.

And that's something to be celebrated.
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  #25  
Old 03-03-2011, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
It doesn't matter who says it, or what does he think of other Lambos, the point still stands.

Ever since Lamborghini launched the Miura back in the mid-60's, the public's perception of Lamborghini changed forever. They went from being the Germanest of the Italian supercar manufacturers to being the Italianest of the Modenese supercar manufacturers.

The Miura was a masterpiece... in leaving everyone astounded. The Countach was all 70's madness combined later on with 80's-style excess and in the restrained 90's, the Diablo's doors still opened upwards.

Certainly, the Murcielago was restrained. Thanks to Audi it felt a bit like Nissan Sunny, but it didn't matter because it still was massive, had a big great V12 behind the seats and featured more (dead) dianosaurs than the entire Jurassic Park franchise.

Perhaps today Lamborghini's core market, that of completely bonkers automobiles, is being attacked by Pagani, whose interiors feature more colors and bright spots than an LSD trip, but it doesn't matter because it seems that while most of the Murcielago's great features are still here, Lambo is slowly going back at being silly again.

And that's something to be celebrated.
First off, I didn't care who said that either, no need to point that out, the point he made stands still only for the Miura and Countach, according to my book.

Everything else you said is quite subjective, and a bit of a nonsense. Even the 550 Maranello was built the same way the Murcielago was, talking about dinosaurs, and while its bodywork was quite simple yet classic, I found it more intriguing than the melting Murcielago. I like the Diablo, but then again, it wasn't madder or older fashion than a Testarossa or 512 M. Both had horrible gearboxes, very powerful mid mounted V12, and both were dramatically detailed. Surely the Diablo was more "macho", but that was probably because it was a late project from the eighties. Anyway.

I can't really see how Lamborghini is going back at being silly. It's actually much more of a market whore as it ever was, as much as Ferrari is. Well, maybe Lamborghini is releasing more "special" editions but I don't care much about that, the more, the better. Sort of.

Then again I don't see how it's possible to compare Pagani and Lamborghini when one cost three times the other, it's made in like 1/50 units and handcrafted VS hand assembled (to give the Murcielago some credits, it was the last of its kind in this regard, rip).

Before the Miura came, Lamborghini was pretty much... nothing. Not that I don't recognize the beauty of the 350 and 400 GT or the weirdness of the Islero, but if it wasn't for the Miura, 1/1.000.000.000 of its fan would know this company. I bet most people don't even know half of their models, and that's about the same as Ferrari.
Too bad because some of them were pretty much great looking, especially the Espada and I'd add the Urraco too (well, I'm the one who like the 308 GT4 after all).

It's OK to buy a light blue or shocking green Lamborghini mainly because of the sixties and seventies, meaning exactly that: the company is still heavily relaying on the Miura and the Countach, because there isn't much else to remember about. Actually there is much more, but it doesn't look like that judging by how the company it's run.
The Diablo, to be honest, had little special to celebrate, except possibly the all wheel drive system, which was at least something new. Talking about madness, it was either the Cizeta or the Eb110 that got it. One didn't work, the other was said to be too German, which may have been true, but then again the poor development that went into the Diablo dynamics wasn't a good aspect either. The Eb100 was similarly styled, much more powerful, complicated and dangerous, and expensive. AFAIK it also was available in weird colors.

I don't have anything specific against the Aventador, meaning it's not something we could do without from a supercar perspective.
I find it a bit disappointing in some aspects, and they managed to make its aggressive bodywork look sedate because of the ReventÚn (as I said, I find it aged pretty quickly). They were beaten by McLaren to get a CF chassis sort of mass produced, without considering the LFA. In board suspensions is good, but something pretty much to be pretended given the overall layout.

Even if the car was better looking for my taste or was the first to get a CF chassis in this segment, I couldn't see much to celebrate about them being silly again, whatever that may mean. I don't need to make a car's unveiling something epic when it isn't.

"Epic" may have been something to be said about the ReventÚn project, and at the beginning that was how it looked like to me. A jet fighter for the road?! Fyeah!
I don't know what really spoiled it, aging styling apart. Maybe the fact it was as expensive as a Pagani while being "just another Murcielago"? Well yeah, that may be silly.

End of the Italian rant.
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  #26  
Old 03-03-2011, 04:54 PM
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LeonOfTheDead summed up my thoughts much more eloquently than I did the first time around. I agree that although the Reventon was a breath of fresh air for Lamborghini, it also meant that we've seen that design before, and because the Aventador is a subtle reworking of the Reventon, it's boring to me.

It's not something I haven't seen before.

To give it more credit, I'd enjoy seeing the Lamborghini more than anything Ferrari can come up with currently.

California? Nah.

458? Nah.

599? Nah.

Give me any Lamborghini over any of those Ferraris. The only reason why I'd notice the Ferraris is because they're rare and expensive, not because I like any of the decisions they've made with the cars- no manual, strange styling, etc.
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead View Post
...
(Sorry to not quote your post but it is a bit long... )

I don't disagree with all you said about the technical aspects of Lamborghinis, and other italian cars. I'm no engineer, and I certainly do not have the level to discuss them. But my point wasn't there.

I think that despite everything, and of course there were rivals, Lamborghini's still stayed in a market segment of their own throughout the 70's, 80's, 90's and still do today. Their cars may have not improved as mush as rivals or maybe toned down flamboyance, but doors still opened vertically.

You argue that a Ferrari Maranello was the same as a Murcielago, but while they may have been built on similar principles, but they didn't feel the same at all. To me in a Lamborghini numbers matter less than in other cars.

See, you buy a Ferrari because it's fast and a Porsche because it doesn't break down. But you buy a Lamborghini because it is preposterous. And therefore it doesn't matter if it can't pull 3g's in the corners or do a million miles an hour. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just that usual rules don't apply in a Lamborghini. and the Reventon was a perfect example of this.

Of course as you said Lamborghinis original focus wasn't mental mid engined supercars, more like excellent GTs, my first paragraph implied that, but that changed long time ago.

All, in all, Lamborghini's don't rely on numbers or objective data to make a point. And I like that.
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  #28  
Old 03-04-2011, 04:50 AM
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Essentially, if you're looking at the facts and figures to validate your purchase of a Lamborghini, you're doing it so very, very wrong.

It should be an event, and events are flawed things.
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  #29  
Old 03-04-2011, 05:45 AM
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I don't really know if numbers weren't so important even on older Lamborighinis, they were often the most powerful object out there, and the power increase between the Diablo and the Murcielago was worth a German war between AMG and M Sport.

Vertical doors are a bit too obvious now anyway.

If I was to purchase a Lamborghini, given I liked one and everything, it wouldn't be hard to justify, even more now with this new toy. Wouldn't be much different than justifying a Ferrari, except for some reasons V12 Lambos are slightly more expensive. The point is that being an alternative to Ferrari isn't exactly a marketing position, and recently they seemed to be only this, an alternative. They surely have their own style and way be different, but as I said they managed to make a sharp line and a crazy detailing something "ordinary".

Sorry guys, but I can't see all this fuzz around modern Lamborghini, and I've already noticed in the past people from outside Italy have a quite different idea about it, especially Americans.

I remember seeing a small episode or something like that on a Gumball 3000 rally (or whatever it was) going on in the States. One of the partecipants laughed at a Ferrari, saying " he wasn't rich enough to buy a Lamborghini". wtf?! That anyway felt quite expected.
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  #30  
Old 03-04-2011, 10:48 AM
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Modern Lamborghini > Modern Ferrari in styling. I rest my case.
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