Drums vs. discs

[Matra et Alpine]

Youd probably have to show me, im a visual learner...
but put simply (i know im going off topic...)
ie. in a paragraph
whats the fastest way through a corner?

'racing line' has been discussed here in UCP before ( but sorry I can't find the tread ATM )

However, I'd been sent THIS in planning a trip with mates.
http://www.bmw.com/generic/com/en/fa...rdschleife.pdf
It covers all the issues in taking the corners of Nordschliefe , so you can see the importance of how the line changes for the corner conditions away from the ideal smooth breaking point->apex->wide exit flattening of a curve that is the 'traditional' view of perfect line.
Take these 2 options for a hairpin - car coming from right to left....

So if looking at fastest LAP time the theoretical lines non-drivers talk about is on the left and according to physics gives the fastest speed through the corner. However the line on the righ is actually the track that woudl give fastest lap time because EXIT speed is higher. So it;s slower just before the apex but the better traction on exit gives faster spped on the upcoming straght
But one corner doesn't make a fast lap and it's often been described as "Zen-like" the line a fast driver will adopt through a series of corners Comes with experience

[fpv_gtho]

I saw something about this in the handbook for Gran Turismo 2.....looked a bit like this

[Alastor]

The advanced racing line is discussed in more detail in The Physics of Racing Series, Part 17:

http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/Part17.html

[Matra et Alpine]

The advanced racing line is discussed in more detail in The Physics of Racing Series, Part 17:

http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/Part17.html

yeah, that's where the images are from.

I have a problem with that guys series as it's all the maths of the right corner. It tempts folks into thinkinf you can look at a map of a circuit and KNOW the fastest line. In reality, that gets you an approximation and then you need to 'feel' the best line as camber affects slip - something he just doesn't account for ( and yet is so precisely mathematical in everything else a major flaw ) He also avoids the difference the CoG of the car has on it's handling which affects the best line. FWD and RWD cars of same weight will have totally different lines !!!!

Rather than all the maths it's easiest to read a book from any of the great racers. They dont' cover the math, they describe a line and talk about feeling for the optimal. Just can't find any of THOSE on-line. Driver rather than mathematician view

[Alastor]

yeah, that's where the images are from.

I have a problem with that guys series as it's all the maths of the right corner. It tempts folks into thinkinf you can look at a map of a circuit and KNOW the fastest line. In reality, that gets you an approximation and then you need to 'feel' the best line as camber affects slip - something he just doesn't account for ( and yet is so precisely mathematical in everything else a major flaw ) He also avoids the difference the CoG of the car has on it's handling which affects the best line. FWD and RWD cars of same weight will have totally different lines !!!!

Rather than all the maths it's easiest to read a book from any of the great racers. They dont' cover the math, they describe a line and talk about feeling for the optimal. Just can't find any of THOSE on-line. Driver rather than mathematician view

The series is the physics behind racing and I don’t think it is intended to teach people how to drive, but if that is the idea they get then I agree it is wrong. The series is geared toward non-technical people who may or may not race and want to understand some of the vehicle dynamics behind racing. Too much complexity and the reader base will be discouraged from trying to understand.

Although he doesn’t mention everything governing vehicle dynamics there is still enough data to build a reasonable vehicle model and because of that I think it is worth reading.

[Matra et Alpine]

Too much complexity and the reader base will be discouraged from trying to understand.

All that math already does that for 80% of the population

Although he doesn’t mention everything governing vehicle dynamics there is still enough data to build a reasonable vehicle model and because of that I think it is worth reading.

Yep, it's all the hallmarks of a game developer rather than a real world drive
An excellent intellectual exercise and for engineers a good read. But - again - for the purpose of racing line and real-world driving most of it is irrelevant and better described in books on racing rather than mechanics.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

damn it i was the one that brought that whole topic/website up man !!!

[Matra et Alpine]

damn it i was the one that brought that whole topic/website up man !!!

Any engineer who races sims and thought about writing one has read that guys papers. It's one of those well-known papers in the development community It appears EVERYWHERE

[Blue Supra]

Too much complexity and the reader base will be discouraged from trying to understand.

i was discouraged...
anyways im waiting for my suspension to get fixed up before i test these lines, after a nasty 70kph accident over a traffic island! stupid dog! what was it doing in the middle of the road at 6.30am! my cars been in the shop all day for the past consecutive 4 days and it has to go in for a re check tomoro, again for a check in a week and it may even need new parts , underneath it looked pretty scraped when it was up on the hoist and my gearbox and tailshaft are loose so thats why it clunks through 1st and 2nd apparently, and theres a leaking seal on my diff too, wow i didnt know so much could go wrong at once! still im looking at a 2L engine and a 5 speeder for it on monday so im hoping it will all be fixed by then! and i can try out those lines properly!

[Matra et Alpine]

and i can try out those lines properly!

Joking, right, please ????

Those lines are for race circuits.
Lines for fastest/safest on roads are totally different !!

ALL roads should be driven to their "vanishing point".
This is the point where you don't see the road anymore because it's over a hill or round a corner. You need to drive so that you can stop within that distance. ANYTHING else is dangerous to you and other road users.

This image and full description at http://www.sabernet.biz/~bobkarol/ri...dingin4d.6.pdf

Please don't do 'racing lines' on public roads. Especially sngle track as their might be somebody coming in the opposite direction

Also,, by learnign these on track you get the opportunity to try a different line every couple of minutes, so the learning is fresh in the memory and you get to try to 'connect' them into a flowing, fast movement.

[Blue Supra]

clearly on a track... im not a complete idiot
i know what you mean by vanishing point, im always looking ahead of where i am to gauge speed and stuff, even when im just driving a nice windy piece of road...

[danno]

this is a very interesting/helpful/useful thread.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Any engineer who races sims and thought about writing one has read that guys papers. It's one of those well-known papers in the development community It appears EVERYWHERE

:P to u

[Blue Supra]

^^^
pwned

[crisis]

'racing line' has been discussed here in UCP before ( but sorry I can't find the tread ATM )

However, I'd been sent THIS in planning a trip with mates.
http://www.bmw.com/generic/com/en/fa...rdschleife.pdf
It covers all the issues in taking the corners of Nordschliefe , so you can see the importance of how the line changes for the corner conditions away from the ideal smooth breaking point->apex->wide exit flattening of a curve that is the 'traditional' view of perfect line.
Take these 2 options for a hairpin - car coming from right to left....

So if looking at fastest LAP time the theoretical lines non-drivers talk about is on the left and according to physics gives the fastest speed through the corner. However the line on the righ is actually the track that woudl give fastest lap time because EXIT speed is higher. So it;s slower just before the apex but the better traction on exit gives faster spped on the upcoming straght
But one corner doesn't make a fast lap and it's often been described as "Zen-like" the line a fast driver will adopt through a series of corners Comes with experience

Another point to consider is the camber on the road on either the approach and/or departure.