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  #16  
Old 02-21-2011, 12:15 AM
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The problem with the XF is that while it clearly steered away from Jaguar's, let's say classic, designs from the early noughties it did so by becoming a completely mainstream four door saloon. It does look good, but from the outside it doesn't feel any different to a Lexus or an Audi, which a Jag should.

This on the other hand blends modernity with tradition. The proportions are pure classic Jaguar, long overhangs, low roof amongst other. But the detailing is pure 21st century. As such it can't be called retro in my opinion, just tradition put up to date.

And this feels and looks like a proper Jaguar, and like nothing else in the market.
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:23 AM
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While I agree this would have a point of difference, not calling this retro is like not referring to the Mini as a retro design because it has a wheel at each corner - not quite the truth.

the XF might look somewhat generic because it's smooth and aerodynamic - a common criticism, and frankly a little boring. The detailing of the interior especially, but also the tail lights, proportions, glass house etc are unique and rather lovely.

I agree the proportions are quite Jag with this model - as you would expect for something designed for a 99 year anniversary. However I don't think they've got the proportions quite right, the rear overhang is too short and the glasshouse too upright and tall.

It's difficult to grasp the feel - it's the textures and surfacing that will make this exceptional - but I agree, it's lovely. It's just a vehicle that harks too much back to the past and as such is the antithesis of what Jaguar wants to be seen as in the current light - a modern company not resting on it's history.
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  #18  
Old 02-21-2011, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by IBrake4Rainbows View Post
This seems self-referential and while I'll agree the lighting seems to be fairly up to date, the upright pillars, suicide doors and large overhangs scream retro-futurism. The pillarless style is a definite link and while I acknowledge a link does not represent a retro styling cue (See Hoffmeister Kink) I still get an overwhelming sense of familiarity seeing this.
With the windshield laid back about 45 degrees and rear perhaps 30, it's kinda hard to see upright pillars. Retro-futurism is as amorphous a concept as post-modernism in design whether automotive, industrial, fashion or architecture. That sense of "familiarity" means Bertone's draughtsmen got the undefinable just right, a rare thing anymore. The new Mini, Mustang, Challenger, et. al, do so overtly, slavish to their generational iconography but then, that's what those products are aimed at. This does so very subtly. As to proportionality, were the beltline lower allowing for more proportional relationships between deck heights, wheel openings and greenhouse, IMHO it would be a
modern classic. Perhaps someone with some chop skills could make a few changes as suggested, just for a look see?
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  #19  
Old 02-21-2011, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by csl177 View Post
With the windshield laid back about 45 degrees and rear perhaps 30, it's kinda hard to see upright pillars. Retro-futurism is as amorphous a concept as post-modernism in design whether automotive, industrial, fashion or architecture. That sense of "familiarity" means Bertone's draughtsmen got the undefinable just right, a rare thing anymore.
You're right, of course. these 'styles' are more guidelines than anything else.

Familiarity might very well be breeding contempt for me, but this is just against what Jaguar have wanted to do - be modern without referencing the past heavily. It's a lovely design in isolation, and it has a nice weight of history, but the weight is something that Jaguar have rightly tried to shift. Where can you go with this type of design?

Quote:
The new Mini, Mustang, Challenger, et. al, do so overtly, slavish to their generational iconography but then, that's what those products are aimed at. This does so very subtly. As to proportionality, were the beltline lower allowing for more proportional relationships between deck heights, wheel openings and greenhouse, IMHO it would be a modern classic.
I don't disagree - this handles it's retro chic much better than the one's you've mentioned by getting those relationships relatively ok, but it's still an old-fashioned way of designing. And it's a mark of a Design house that perhaps hasn't quite embraced the three-dimensionality of modern design. This to me looks like a drawing board special - excellent in profile and front view, but the transitions aren't great.

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Perhaps someone with some chop skills could make a few changes as suggested, just for a look see?
I second this motion.
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  #20  
Old 02-21-2011, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBrake4Rainbows View Post
Familiarity might very well be breeding contempt for me, but this is just against what Jaguar have wanted to do - be modern without referencing the past heavily. It's a lovely design in isolation, and it has a nice weight of history, but the weight is something that Jaguar have rightly tried to shift. Where can you go with this type of design?
This, however, is very different to the previous generation XJ or the S-Type. Those cars were shamelessly pillaging from Jaguar's design heritage in such a way, in the S-Type and X-Type especially, it was pathetic - this doesn't. What this tries to do in my view is takes Jaguar's traditional values into the 21st and does it quite successfully.

Let me put it this way, is the 911 retro? I would say it isn't, in the same way this isn't either. Of course the XF and new XJ make this car a bit redundant, and out of place but if only it had been released before them... in any case if Jaguar goes mad and decides to make it, I certainly want one.
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Originally Posted by IBrake4Rainbows View Post
I don't disagree - this handles it's retro chic much better than the one's you've mentioned by getting those relationships relatively ok, but it's still an old-fashioned way of designing. And it's a mark of a Design house that perhaps hasn't quite embraced the three-dimensionality of modern design. This to me looks like a drawing board special - excellent in profile and front view, but the transitions aren't great.
It isn't old-fashioned! No, ok, you are right it is. But is that such a bad thing? If it's a formula that works why not use it?
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  #21  
Old 02-21-2011, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
This, however, is very different to the previous generation XJ or the S-Type. Those cars were shamelessly pillaging from Jaguar's design heritage in such a way, in the S-Type and X-Type especially, it was pathetic - this doesn't. What this tries to do in my view is takes Jaguar's traditional values into the 21st and does it quite successfully.
Those cars were retro in a way that was dishonest to the brand's illustrious heritage. Round headlights do not a historical reference make.

I understand your point of view here, I am just of the opinion that simply rehashing old shapes and designs doesn't advance design's cause - no matter how effective they might have been.

Quote:
Let me put it this way, is the 911 retro? I would say it isn't, in the same way this isn't either. Of course the XF and new XJ make this car a bit redundant, and out of place but if only it had been released before them... in any case if Jaguar goes mad and decides to make it, I certainly want one.
A 911 is retro in the sense that it has stuck to the basic formula for 40 or so years now. However the incremental advances made to the shape mean that while the lineage is obvious, the transformation between 964 and 997 for instance is fairly linear, the shapes are familiar, but the details are sharper. Sweeping the windscreen back is an excellent example.

I get this point as well - but Jaguar have made a concious leap away from their past design cues, Porsche haven't.


Quote:
It isn't old-fashioned! No, ok, you are right it is. But is that such a bad thing? If it's a formula that works why not use it?
Typewriters were effective means of communication, still are.

Horses are effective transportation methods, still are.

Repeating yourself leads only to circular thinking - pushing the envelope, now thats where the interest lies.
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  #22  
Old 02-21-2011, 05:02 AM
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One thing to take into consideration - this is a 3 series competitor, and as such has to be a little more compact than recent Jags which explains the short overhangs. Also, they'll want it to be a volume seller, which traditionally means that the designs will sway towards the conservative. Obviously this is a concept and therefore can be as out there as you like, but for it to be taken seriously as a possible pointer to production it has to have some realism to it. I think if you look at it from that point of view, it's an indication that there could be some truely handsome beasts roaming our streets soon.

As for whether it's retro or not, I'd sway towards the 'modern classic' than 'retro'. There's scant difference between the two but considering this doesn't directly ape an existing model in any exact fashion I think we can give it the benefit of the doubt. It's not exactly what you think of when you hear about Jag wanting to be modern, but I don't feel that this isn't a modern design. I like that it's a distinctive take on what is a conservative segment of the market, without being so flashy as to never sell anything. I'd like to see some nicer pictures with more of a sense of scale though - perhaps a lovely lady draped over it will provide such.
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  #23  
Old 02-21-2011, 06:48 AM
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A little harsh there, eh?

It's so traditionally Jag it puts me into a coma.
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  #24  
Old 02-22-2011, 03:58 PM
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I really like this. I wish Jag would stop teasing us with awesome concept cars and start putting them into production!!
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  #25  
Old 02-23-2011, 09:45 AM
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Such a massive amount of want it can't even be put into words.
For once, I can whole heartedly agree with you . This thing looks spectacular .
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  #26  
Old 03-07-2011, 07:25 PM
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Officially not happening - this was a Bertone concept, Jag had nothing to do with it.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:13 PM
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Officially not happening - this was a Bertone concept, Jag had nothing to do with it.
Haha, and you guys got so excited too!

From the beginning I wasn't much a fan, so that's okay I guess.

I don't like the greenhouse to car ratio- every car these days is having less and less glass.

I also don't like the rear, it looks like it can't decide which way is facing the front. I do see the clear connection to Jaguar in the front clip, the only part I kind of like.

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  #28  
Old 03-08-2011, 12:15 AM
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I am still excited.

And Jaguar has made a bad decision. But each to his own.
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  #29  
Old 03-08-2011, 04:09 AM
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Good Call.

They have an in-house design team for a reason.
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  #30  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:59 AM
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Good Call.

They have an in-house design team for a reason.
I don't think having an in-house design team and asking external studios to submit proposals contradict each other.
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